Tim McKirdy: Sother, we've had a schedule change today. We were going to do Escargot Bourguignon, but there's a great snail crisis happening, so we're just going to have to do Oysters Rockefeller again. Another one. Oysters Rockefeller. What is it?

Sother Teague: Well, as you just said, think escargot, but let's substitute oyster for the snail. And that's not exactly what it is, but that's where it spawned from.

TM: Oysters, butter, green goodness. Broiled, a little bit of crispiness. Delicious appetizer.

ST: I don't think you can build an entire entree out of this unless you eat an inordinate amount of them, which I could certainly do and I could certainly see myself doing. But yeah, this is a first course.

TM: I know that firsthand that you could definitely do that and you can definitely approach it, because I've been to one of our joint favorite seafood stores here in New York with yourself. Aqua Best. Love it. And I saw you walking out of that place with at least a couple dozen oysters.

ST: Five that day. That was five dozen.

TM: You know, I'm going to put my hand up here and I will be honest from the get-go. This is not a dish I've cooked before. I've cooked similar dishes. I've used many of the techniques or the ingredients that are in here, but I haven't cooked this start to finish. I've definitely enjoyed eating it. And I know you have that sort of rich connection to oysters. So when we kick off with our personal connections here to this dish, I'm just going to say on my part, it does evoke for me kind of the Gilded Age. I think of one of the places I really enjoy eating oysters in New York and it's Grand Central. And you think about that building, that stunning building. Half the name is Rockefeller and I'm just thinking old New York, Gilded Age. And for that alone, I'm excited for this episode and this dish.

ST: Yeah, it evokes those kinds of feelings just from its name. Rockefeller in his heyday was the wealthiest man in America. So his name — you put it on anything and it meant wealth, richness, lavish, lush. I have a lifelong love affair with oysters. I was 14 years old when I had my first paycheck job, an actual job where you got a paycheck, not just mowing lawns and stuff like that, at a place called Ham's Oyster Bar in my hometown. We shuck 'em, you suck 'em. It was crazy, but I was an oyster shucker. And I loved them before that even. I remember eating oysters as a kid. I think that's pretty common where I'm from. I don't think that maybe in the middle of the country kids eat oysters, but I did. I grew up on the coast, and then this preparation absolutely falls into the umbrella of the way I enjoy eating oysters.

TM: If you were to come up with a ranking there, and I'm putting you on the spot here, where would it rank in the different ways in which one can eat an oyster for you?

ST: I'm going to say let's go third. First place for me is raw. I love raw oysters. Second place for me is going to be fried. I love fried oysters. Like an oyster po'boy when I lived in New Orleans, that's the thing. And then third, I'm going to lump Rockefeller into this category of sort of baked, broiled, oysters still in the shell but cooked.

TM: Beautiful. And I like how we've got those two sort of connective tissues for this dish. Its name, the etymology, but also the origin there. It might evoke Gilded Age, it might evoke New York, Grand Central, whatever — the Upper East Side or things like that. But actually we need to head down to New Orleans to trace the origins of this dish. And thankfully, for us here today, most of our story is undisputed, with a few question marks.

ST: Yeah. I think all of it's — well, okay. Now I know what you're talking about. There are some question marks that are going to raise their head, but the story is undisputed on where they originate. They originate at a restaurant that is super famous. It's been around since 1840. It's called Antoine's. It's in the French Quarter of New Orleans. I just realized during looking up all this information that Antoine's is the oldest continuously operating family-owned restaurant in America.

TM: Wow.

ST: I think that's pretty great.

TM: And especially considering as well, Katrina and other things that have really impacted New Orleans, and for these vaunted establishments to continue through all of that. I think that's very much the story of New Orleans, but really impressive.

ST: Well, I mean, that's recent history. You think — of course, they went through Katrina, they went through the pandemic, they went through the Great Depression. They went through Prohibition, they went through a previous pandemic. To stay around that long and to still maintain family ownership is pretty incredible.

TM: So we are going to trace it back to, yes, 1840. Antoine Alciatore, founder of that eponymous restaurant, Antoine's. But actually it's his son Jules who comes up with this dish. He had trained in some of the great kitchens in Paris and Monte Carlo, and many believe — end of the 19th century, late eighties or late nineties, the 1800s — Jules comes up with this dish. And he comes up with it because of that aforementioned escargot crisis. Is this something you were familiar with?

ST: Not at all. Never heard of such a thing. I didn't know we've ever suffered a shortage of snails in the culinary world, but apparently that was happening in 1899. And it begs the question then. Okay, so you couldn't get ahold of snails, so then skip that dish. No, we're not going to skip the dish. We want to make something similar.

TM: We can't leave it off the menu.

ST: Yeah, we're too steeped in our French menu — can't go without.

TM: So per my research, I think maybe the reason for that, or the defining factor, was that Escargot Bourguignonne — so snails in the Burgundian style — was the signature dish of Antoine's. Kind of makes sense as well if Jules did that sort of deep culinary training in France. So snails become difficult to import. They swap it out, but he takes those techniques — the garlic butter, parsley combo — and we start looking at basically an oyster gratin with a compound butter and a few other ingredients.

ST: Yeah, that's a great way to call it. It's a tiny single gratin, because it's in its shell. And then we're going to get it bubbly and crispy and all those flavors are going to come through. But there's some of those mysteries that you alluded to that I had sort of forgotten about.

TM: Do you want to talk about the mystery now?

ST: I mean, I think we should, yeah. The mystery is this is a secret recipe that's never been shared outside the walls of Antoine's. And this is a revelation to me. I have enjoyed this dish all my life, both as a consumer of it and as a maker of it, professionally and at home. And I always had it in my mind that this dish involved some things that it turns out — it seems that it definitely doesn't.

TM: The principal one being —

ST: Spinach. It absolutely strikes you as a sort of almost creamed spinach situation that's bubbled on top of oysters with a breadcrumb topping. And that's apparently not what it is.

TM: So yeah, Jules supposedly takes the recipe to his grave with him. I mean, that can't be true because they're still making it there, right? They're still open, they're still making it, they're still famous for it. So someone knows, but apparently took it to the deathbed with him. People throughout history have questioned that and questioned the spinach. And repeatedly the family has said, there's no spinach in this dish.

ST: Which — I mean, is that a red herring? Are they just trying to throw you off?

TM: Honestly, I think so. However, in 1986, someone trying to get to the bottom of this mystery, this debate, commissioned a lab report, some lab analysis on Antoine's Oysters Rockefeller. And from those laboratory results, they found that it contained parsley, celery, scallions — or chives, which apparently analytically you cannot distinguish between the two, which is news to me as well — olive oil, capers, but no spinach.

ST: Right. Well then that would make me think probably maybe both of them are in there or whatever. I love — in my mind, I envision some well-to-do, curious culinary person ordering Oysters Rockefeller at Antoine's and then slipping them into a briefcase.

TM: I was thinking about that as well.

ST: And then sneaking out and going directly to the lab with it handcuffed to his wrist.

TM: You know who didn't do that?

ST: Who?

TM: John D. Rockefeller. And you know why?

ST: Because he — did he even ever have these? We don't know. It'd be like naming your oysters Bezos or something today. He's never coming by. Although Antoine's is a very famous place and a lot of famous people have been there.

TM: So his grandson for sure has eaten there, but I don't know whether John D. did. Famously a teetotaler, so he wouldn't have enjoyed — and we haven't even mentioned that there is booze in this, but we're covering it on Sauced, so yeah. And we're in New Orleans, so you can probably guess where that is.

ST: No surprise.

TM: But he didn't drink alcohol and I think he found it also quite insulting that his name was used without his permission. At this point, he was the richest man on earth, worth $64 million — roughly 435 billion in modern-day terms — and controlled 90% of all oil in the United States. When his grandson Winthrop Rockefeller — classic name there — dined at Antoine's, he said his grandfather John D. was incensed anyone would ever name food after him. And he was a man of simple tastes. Never visited Antoine's or tasted the dish. Beyond the sort of luxury of his opulence — the green, the money connection. I think it's also, by the way, just to round this section out, a great name for a dish.

ST: It is. Well, that's a great surname for a person. And it just signifies his wealth, but it's just a strong name. Rockefeller. It's got the word "rock" in it, so it also rocks.

TM: Yeah.

ST: But I mean, rock is sturdy. It just feels sturdy.

TM: It does.

ST: It feels timeless. I don't know — the Teague name is going to go on forever. It feels like the Rockefeller name is here to stay.

TM: I think so. For sure. I mean, at least another couple hundred years at least. That leads us to a little conundrum then to round out the opening section of today's show. Is this a prince's or a pauper's dish?

ST: This question always catches me, I think, but I'm going to say immediately this is a prince's dish. And I never even put together — again, probably because I'm colorblind — I never even put together that green is the color of money. And so this is a green dish. Got a lot of green things in it. Rockefeller, wealth — I think this dish — we're going to use some absinthe, the green fairy — I think this dish is definitely a prince's dish.

TM: I think so as well, if you're naming it after the richest man alive. But then just on the other hand, just to bring our everyday working person into this, and you've mentioned it a few times before — it comes up a lot — like, oysters were cheap and plentiful and all over the place.

ST: And we're in a part of the world where they're especially plentiful.

TM: And I think it is lost on the current person that oysters used to be so plentiful and all over the place that you would buy them at vending carts like hot dogs in New York.

ST: You could just walk up and get a couple of oysters popped for you right there on the street. Oysters were definitely an every-man item. But when you take that every-man item and you do this nice preparation to it, now we've elevated it.

TM: As is so often the case. And one final little question for us here that we don't need an answer for. So I read that in 1885, very much around the time just before Jules would've come up with this dish, oysters cost 3 cents each at the time in the U.S. Four years later, almost exactly around the exact time when Jules came up with this dish, that had gone down to a third of the price — 1 cent each, which is cheaper than meat, poultry, or any other fish at the time. Which leads me to believe — was there a snail crisis, or was it just, why don't we make it with this? This is infinitely cheaper.

ST: Well, okay, I can see that. But as you mentioned, they had the Escargot Bourguignonne as their signature dish. And it's gorgeous and it's been repeated at other places. There's a place here in New York that does it as well — it's a delicious rendition. But they didn't just sub the oysters into that. They made this whole new dish. So it wasn't like a one-for-one situation. And I understand what you're saying, but I can certainly also see the economy — if I can get oysters for a penny a piece, whatever that translates to today, very low barrier of entry. And then also, it's kind of a first-course thing. You don't serve a bunch of them to someone. I think these guys didn't stay in business forever not being good businessmen. So I think it's a wise move for the business.

TM: Well, I think that's a really fun way to kick off and that's a fun origin story. A lot of meat for us to get into — and shellfish. So here we go: Culinary luminaries — Julia, Jacques, and anyone else. What do you have for us, Sother?

ST: I mean, I dug around. Not much coming out from really anybody. I do have a funny thing I think from Julia Child. She noted that three Oysters Rockefeller per person is appropriate for a first course, to which my immediate response is — that's stingy, Julia. I think your minimum entry is six. And I think I could easily eat 12 oysters before having dinner.

TM: So I think Julia was being a little stingy. Jacques — didn't find a whole lot from him about specifically Oysters Rockefeller. He does a bunch of other cooked — in this style — cooked in the half-shell oyster situations. He did recommend a technique that I think is at least worth mentioning.

ST: We're going to talk about shucking oysters later, but he mentioned using a microwave to barely cook — as he said it, mi-cuit. So he puts them in the microwave for anywhere from 15 to 45 seconds to slightly cook the oyster, but then it'll open and shucking is much easier. I just wanted to mention it because I think Jacques has never been one to shy away from using techniques at his disposal. I don't think he's ever been — like, I think there's some chefs out there that are like, I wouldn't have a microwave. I just don't happen to have one. If I had one, I would use it. I just don't have one. It's New York. But we're going to talk about shucking oysters and I think that's one of the things that prohibits the home cook from making this dish — that intimidation factor of shucking. But we're going to get you past that.

TM: Yeah. I also came up a little bit short when it comes to quotes on this dish specifically. I did discover that James Beard included Oysters Rockefeller in his definitive book on American cuisine, and his recipe uses watercress and not spinach.

ST: Yeah. I've seen both, and I've seen both together — spinach and watercress. Spinach or watercress. And I'm really kind of blown away at how so many people go to spinach, but then the lab results prove there was none in there.

TM: I really do like the idea of watercress though, that pepperiness. It's not an ingredient that I love. But I can imagine in this scenario and with the other ingredients, I'm really going to enjoy that kind of bite, that kick.

ST: I really do love watercress and I also find it to be sorely missing from the American palette of just ready-to-grab greens. Like I can't even remember the last time I saw watercress at my local market.

TM: Yeah. It's one of those things that just is everywhere in kitchens. But it doesn't seem to have stood the test of time compared to your kales, compared to your — I dunno, insert other greens here that are trendier these days.

ST: I'm sure you get those mesclun mixes that have all the different greens in there, but watercress isn't one of them. I'm sure it has to do with shelf stability.

TM: And supply and demand.

ST: Yeah, probably. But I do love that peppery bite that watercress brings.

TM: Just a couple of quotes here from me on oysters just in general. Got one from our friend and great inspiration, Anthony Bourdain, just on his first experience with oysters. I believe — and anyone who's read Kitchen Confidential or any of his books will know — that when he was younger, he would go to France as a sort of teenager for the holidays during summer. He was on an oyster boat in France and a fisherman named Monsieur Sanur offered him a raw oyster. He said it tasted of seafood, of brine and flesh and somehow of the future. Everything was different now.

ST: Wow.

TM: Was that like the first time a young Sother Teague had his first oyster?

ST: I was just trying, as you were even saying that, I was trying to think — do I even remember my very first one? And I think I have at least a rough memory. We were at just a regular sort of neighborhood seafood shack sort of place. And my dad gave me an oyster. And again, these are — I grew up on the Gulf of Mexico, so these would be the big plump Gulf-style oysters. And the way you eat them is they're always on a saltine cracker with cocktail sauce, horseradish, hot sauce, lemon, any combination of those things. And you eat them in one big bite. So it's almost like in your mouth when you're chewing them, the cracker becomes crumb. So you've got this sort of crumbed oyster. And I remember enjoying it very, very much.

TM: And I can imagine that —

ST: I don't think it made me see the future, but it certainly made me feel like I was part of the group.

TM: Nice. Definitely an intimidating thing to pick up for the first time. Or as has been attributed to Jonathan Swift in 1738, although I'm sure he's not the first one to make this sentiment — he was a bold man that first ate an oyster. Hard to disagree.

ST: Yeah, I've heard that one before many times. And it's like, where did we get this?

TM: Yeah.

ST: Why did we try it? My assumption is we had to see something else try it. We had to see some birds smacking oysters against a rock to break them open or some sea otter breaking open oysters to get the meat inside. We had to — something had to show us the way. I could be wrong. Otherwise these are just rocks.

TM: Maybe it was someone shipwrecked trying to catch sea birds with a net underwater.

ST: Oh, the moules story. What?

TM: What was he doing? Trying to catch birds with a net.

ST: Yeah.

TM: Sea birds float. So maybe they were on the surface of the water, easier to catch than a flying bird. I've been thinking about this, as you can see.

ST: I see, I see. Okay.

TM: But anyway, let's bring it back to oysters and let's look at our ingredients today. Let's kick it off. We always like to go order of importance. It's in there in the name. We've been spending a little bit of time talking about it. Tell me about oysters for this dish. What do I need to know?

ST: The oysters specifically — I think you need to have a big plump oyster, because when you cook oysters, they sort of shrivel and shrink. So you need to start with larger ones than you think you might want to eat raw. That's the first thing I would say.

TM: Can you give me something right now that is very helpful and I can't believe I've never thought about this before, but you never want to do it, right? So you're sat there and the server comes over, they hand you down a sheet — these are the oysters we have today. And it gives you the different — it's going to be East Coast, West Coast, Gulf. Can you give me the cheat sheet on what to expect from each one?

ST: Oh, sure. And it's pretty straightforward to be honest. East Coast oysters are typically going to be more briny and salty, with a sort of cleaner meat. If you just look at the oyster itself, it's typically going to have a little bit of a shallower cup compared to the three. The oyster always has a cup side — the top side's pretty flat, the bottom side's the cup, that's where the oyster and its brine sits once we've popped it open. So we're going to have a smoother shell, no fluted ridges. More blade-like and brinier. West Coast oysters, they have that fluted shell. The cup is typically deeper. The meat is plumper, but more creamy than briny. Gulf Coast oysters are sort of a hybrid of the two, and they're much larger. Gulf Coast oysters are typically three to five times bigger than either the East or West, even the medium to large-size ones. Varying sizes no matter what, but three to five times I would say is an easy number. They do have that more sort of non-fluted edge. The shell itself is thicker. The meat inside the oyster is very plump with a briny and creamy quality.

TM: Interesting. That's really good. I love that idea as well, the Gulf being the hybrid between the two. That's a really great mental cue for me — the Gulf being in the middle of the East and West Coast. I love it. Now I feel confident next time I go out and I'm offered oysters.

ST: Yeah. And then when it comes to the differences between the oysters that come from the East Coast, you need to talk to your server or whoever at that point. They can give you — these might be more minerally, these might be more briny, these might be more clean and fresh ocean-flavored. Some have grassy notes, some taste of seaweed and sea algae. I think largely the Gulf Coast oysters have that one sort of quality — it's always sort of salty but creamy and very large. And then the West Coast ones have a very creamy quality, which of the three is my least favorite.

TM: And if you and I are in Aqua Best together, you're gravitating towards the Gulf oysters for this dish. What are you then starting to look for? Or what are you not looking for, as it were?

ST: You want to just make sure that the oysters are heavy for their size. That means that the meat inside is plump and that there's plenty of brine inside as well. Once they've started giving up the ghost, they'll open up and they'll lose some of their brine, which will shrink their weight. They can still be quite alive, but you want it to be kind of heavy for its size. And you want to know your purveyor — that's going to be the big thing here. We've talked in the past about getting to know your butcher. You should get to know your seafood monger as well. Whether you know them all by name or not, at least you know them by reputation. And the spot we're talking about that we go to together sometimes here in the city is called Aqua Best. And they have a great reputation. They are a supplier to many of the most well-known seafood restaurants in New York slash the world. And they have this outlet where they sell to the public — they're not just a distributor to businesses. So they have a great reputation. Also, I think just like when you go to a sushi bar, you want to go to an oyster bar or seafood restaurant in general that's busy. The busier they are, the more they're going through stuff, the more they're going through stuff, the less stuff is sitting around.

TM: Yeah.

ST: Seafood — we want to get to it while it's good and fresh. There are some great chefs out there right now who are really pioneering the world of dry aging seafoods and things like that. So I'm certainly not poo-pooing that, but generally speaking, seafood, we're going to go through pretty quickly.

TM: Those Gulf oysters again — worth noting here, I like a little statistic or a data point. Those account for over 70% of the oysters in the U.S., the majority from Louisiana.

ST: That is fascinating and I'm going to talk about it. Keep going though.

TM: The economic impact, therefore, of that industry — 4,000 jobs support that industry, $300-plus million a year it contributes to the economy. And there's an oyster company, I forget whose name it is, but based down there, they estimate that 50,000 oysters are consumed every day in the French Quarter alone, in New Orleans.

ST: I love that. That's incredible. The thing that shocks me though is when you say 70%. 70% of all oysters consumed in America are coming out of the Gulf of Mexico?

TM: Yes.

ST: Okay. That shocks me because — and you and I have talked about this, I think the last time we were at Aqua Best — you can't get oysters in the shell from the Gulf of Mexico here in New York. And I think that has largely to do with consumer demand. The consumer here wants to eat a smaller oyster, so we get oysters shipped all the way across the country, but not up from the Gulf of Mexico, except in the form of already-shucked and in cans or buckets, which are called selects.

TM: Tell us about those.

ST: Selects — they're exactly like they sound. They're just Gulf Coast oysters that have already been shucked and packed with their own brine. So they shuck them over a screen, so they're catching any juice that falls, and then they give them a quick swish to clean off any maybe sand or debris. And then they put them in a package with that strained liquid back on top of them. And it doesn't confuse me to know that 70% of the oysters come out of the Gulf that get consumed in America on this note — which is to say, East Coast and West Coast simply aren't very good for, as I mentioned earlier, my number two — fried oysters, which I think is how most oysters probably in the country get consumed, to make sandwiches or just a basket of fried oysters or your seafood platter. The East and West are just too small. And as I mentioned earlier, when you cook an oyster, it shrinks and shrivels anyway. So if you try to make a basket or even just a simple po'boy with East Coast oysters, you're going to come out with these little fried raisins. They're not big enough to withstand that intense heat until the coating gets brown. They're too thin, they don't have enough juice, moisture.

TM: And so it doesn't surprise me on that side, but it does surprise me on the other side.

ST: But you can get selects. But I think people have so many preconceived notions about oysters in general that I don't think people feel confident purchasing already-shucked oysters like that, when in fact that's probably how most oysters get consumed. They just don't know that. Like when you go to a place that's making po'boys, they're not shucking oysters to make po'boys. They're buying buckets of selects. And that's that. There's just no reasonable way to make it worthwhile economically, or timewise —

TM: Or space-wise.

ST: Exactly. All those factors come into play.

TM: Totally. But I am really pleased to hear that 70% out of the Gulf of Mexico.

ST: Way you go.

TM: My stat doesn't say consumed, but it says 70% of the U.S. oyster supply. So you have to assume, unless we have a big export business going on —

ST: What else are we doing with them?

TM: Well yeah, those selects might be going to other countries. Who knows? But fascinating that the Gulf dominates. And yet, like you say, we cannot — or it's very, very difficult — to get them here fresh in the shell.

Next ingredient for us here. Also very near and dear or historic when it comes to New Orleans, Louisiana, this part of the world. You mentioned absinthe — I'm just going to say anise spirits slash liqueurs, because that has changed over time. But that is going to be our hero alcohol when it comes to the preparation of this dish.

ST: Yeah. I kind of always go with absinthe for this one. I think in New Orleans, obviously when absinthe was criminalized, they were using Herbsaint, which is the local turn on that. But there's plenty of other anise-based liqueurs that could easily be subbed in for this. But that flavor of anise and oyster with the greens of the herbs — spinach, questionable — is just peanut butter and jelly. It's one of those really delicious, they-go-well-together kind of no-matter-what combinations.

TM: Yeah, totally. Those flavors really work well with your seafood. Absinthe, of course, banned in the U.S. in 1912. And I actually — it sounds like they don't share their recipe, but I don't know what they do at Antoine's. But I imagine if we wanted to keep it in the realm of New Orleans, then we might instead turn to Herbsaint. Or, as you said, the cheaper one, the one that's going to be available anywhere — Pernod. Or Ricard.

ST: Yeah.

TM: Those two options from France. And then absinthe becomes legal again in 2007 after a whole crazy story that was not worth anyone's time. And everything you probably think you know about absinthe is a myth. It is a myth.

Seen as how we are in New Orleans and seen as how I mentioned Herbsaint — that being that alternative — little pop quiz for you here.

ST: Uh oh.

TM: Why is it called such? What does it mean?

ST: You know, I don't know.

TM: So — French name. A sacred herb. I think that's the allusion to wormwood or whatever. But it's also an anagram. You move the letters around and you can spell Herbsaint from absinthe.

ST: I had no idea. That is really clever.

TM: You know what that is? Porto fun fact of the day.

ST: That is the Porto fun fact of the day for sure. And that's a fun one. And I can't believe I didn't even know that. I worked for Susan Spicer who owns numerous places down there, and one of her proteges, Donald Link, went on to open up Herbsaint, which was just a couple of doors down from the restaurant I worked at. I never put that together. Incredible.

TM: Nice. Very nice. Porto coming in to save the day. We're doing ingredients today in terms of importance, but also in terms of these are the things that don't come up that often. We spoke about it a little bit earlier, but my next ingredient on my list is just green mix. So — spinach.

ST: Sure.

TM: You've spoken about it, you are going to use that, you're going to commit to that.

ST: I'm committing us both. You haven't made this dish, so I'm committing us both.

TM: I'm happy to go along with you.

ST: Right. We definitely have to have spinach. From there, I think we can go with some parsley. Your favorite — it's going to be a running joke. That's what I'm putting on your bingo card. Now we go back your way. Spinach, parsley. And then like you said, green mix. Let's get some — tarragon, right, more of that anise flavor. Chervil, which also has that sort of light anise-y flavor. Some fennel.

TM: Ooh.

ST: Right. We can sweat that down and make it tender. Celery, which has that green, very clean flavor.

TM: Are you peeling your celery when you cook it?

ST: For this? No, because we'd be pureeing it anyway, so it'd be a waste of time.

TM: Just the sentiment. Like, I don't know how you can go near a celery and dice it up and not have it peeled.

ST: Tim's been with me when we've been out and about and people have brought us celery sticks or whatever — I sit there and peel them if they're not peeled. And then we could even maybe sneak in some capers to bring a little briny pop to the situation. And that's all the green.

TM: Watercress as well. We mentioned it.

ST: Oh, we mentioned watercress too. Yes. Sure. I would love to maybe fold some watercress in and get that peppery notion.

TM: Yeah. Very nice. I like to call it the arugula that you can cook.

ST: The arugula that you can cook.

TM: Next one here. Breadcrumbs.

ST: Yep. Gotta have breadcrumbs because that's going to give it that crumby top. As you mentioned earlier, this is effectively little tiny one-bite oyster gratins.

TM: I was thinking about this as I was walking down the street earlier. I was thinking about our recording today, and I was like, well, we're going to talk about breadcrumbs. At this point I feel like everyone just gravitates towards and goes for Panko. Japanese breadcrumbs. What's the difference?

ST: The Panko, Japanese breadcrumbs, are just larger crumbs, so they have more jagged edges to catch some butter or seasonings that you put in there. They're very untoasted, so they're not brown. So you've got a little bit more runway to get them to the brown that you want them to without undercooking whatever they're on top of, or burning. But I've always struggled with the mystery — Japanese breadcrumbs. Name for me the Japanese breads.

TM: I don't know. Are they just making breadcrumbs? What about milk bread?

ST: They're not making bread — they're just making breadcrumbs. But generally speaking, they're not the biggest bread culture and they're the king of breadcrumbs. Nobody's outdoing the Japanese on the breadcrumb front. Italians had it in the box for a while, but the Japanese have unleashed.

TM: It's like all those people in Andalucia right now, in the Sherry Triangle in Jerez, that are making sherry not to be drunk, not to be consumed, not even to be made into vinegar — just to be put into barrels so you can season the barrel and then ship it off to Scotland and you can age your single malt in a sherry cask that once contained a liquid that no one is drinking because barely anyone drinks sherry.

ST: Right? So yeah — Japanese breadcrumbs, Panko, those are the way to go for this dish. Just because they're going to give you a good texture. I think the failing of the Italian-style breadcrumb — and I think those are the only two on the market, Japanese and Italian — is that it's the texture of sand. It's really fine. And that's great for making a coating for your eggplant parm or what have you. But it doesn't give you as much of that dynamic exterior that you want for something like this, for the top of a gratin.

TM: Additionally, for this dish — this being French cuisine, classical French cuisine in its roots — you have alliums. Onions, or shallots — definitely shallots for this one. Garlic, herbs, things like that. You got me on the herbs. And I think that's going to wrap everything up for us today in our ingredient section.

ST: Do we say butter? We have to have butter.

TM: Oh, yeah. Sorry. No, no, no. We have to have butter.

ST: Butter, unsalted butter. I think anytime we say butter on the show, we're going to mean unsalted. Again, that's so you have control over that ingredient. Because you can't take salt out of the butter. So if you're using the butter and it over-seasons your product, then you're at a loss. So I never buy salted butter. You can salt your own butter, it's fine. So I think that's kind of everything we need to make the Oysters Rockefeller. And I think the beauty of this dish is that it's really less about an ingredients list and more about the technique.

TM: Alright, Sother. Time to commit.

ST: Okay.

TM: What are our non-negotiables today?

ST: Well, I think it's hard to commit because we've discovered that the recipe is a secret. And so we don't really know it. But we are going to commit — we're going to commit to our version of this secret recipe. The McKirdy-Teague Rockefeller.

TM: And you get top billing even though you've admitted to never making the dish. Non-negotiables though — we do have some.

ST: A hundred percent.

TM: Gulf oysters, you said that.

ST: I did. I think you're going to do yourself a favor if you can get ahold of Gulf oysters in the shell. I am realizing now that I also said it is very difficult to get Gulf oysters in the shell if you're not in or near the Gulf. So then what? You can do this in a dish — get yourself some select oysters from your well-known fishmonger, so they're nice and plump, and just put them in a creme brulee dish and then follow from there. So it'd be basically the same situation. Because I do really think that the Gulf oyster is going to make the difference in this dish. Not just because of its size, but because of its flavor profile as well. The East Coast ones are too small, they're just going to shrivel up and be too salty. The West Coast ones are too small and they're just going to shrivel up and be too chewy. Like the plump, creamy oysters from the West Coast — even when you fry them, they get kind of chewy. So Gulf oysters are the thing.

TM: Next — an anise-flavored liqueur or spirit. Absinthe, Herbsaint, Pernod. One of the three. It has to be in there. It defines the dish. Without it, it's just an oyster gratin or an oyster Bourguignonne. And then the other one here I think relates to cooking technique. You've got to finish it under the broiler or you've got to gratinee it in some way.

ST: Yeah. So that's really all of the things that are super important to this dish. Specifically, Gulf oysters — hopefully in the shell, but if not, you can get around that. An anise-flavored liqueur — absinthe, Herbsaint — even Sambuca could fold in there, or Ouzo, or Arak. There's plenty. It shocks me how many there are and how global they are, and then they're just not here. I think it's a polarizing flavor for the American palate. But don't let that steer you away from this dish. The flavor is there as a component. It is not the dominant. So I don't want you to think, oh, I don't like anise. We're not making oysters licorice here. It's a flavor component, it's not the dominant flavor. And then the technique, which is to bake them in a hot oven slash on your grill, whatever, and then finish them underneath a broiler to get that gratinee.

TM: And then I think, so what we're describing so far sounds like we've got a dish that doesn't have a huge list of ingredients, doesn't have a huge list of techniques involved. This is a pretty easy dish.

ST: I want to encourage the listener to make Oysters Rockefeller.

TM: Well, we shall see. Hopefully, if we're successful here — one of the things I know you've been enjoying, I've very much been enjoying it as well, is when our listeners are out there making the dishes, showing the work, sharing it on Instagram. Folks, when you do that, just know that Sother and I message each other — we do — and we're blown away. And we're like, we can't believe people are out there doing this. And we're relatively new as a show. So we love that. Keep doing it. Tag us at @sauced.pod, follow us if you aren't already, and let's share the work. If you share that online, we're going to repost it. Of course. And behind closed doors, we're going to be talking about it and we might be saying, damn, those people are making it a little bit better than we are.

ST: Yeah, those crepes looked great.

TM: Yes. And the Moules Mariniere that I saw — I saw many people attempting that at home.

ST: I couldn't believe how the Moules episode went up at whatever the time that it gets dropped — it's like five in the morning or whatever — and someone made it that night. And made it and posted about it. Like, that's a lot of effort in one day. And I really appreciate it. It makes me feel super good to know that people are out there listening and enjoying the show. Because we're enjoying the ride, that's for sure.

TM: Yeah. And I think the thing — just to bring it back to this section and the non-negotiables — we're like, these are in this case two ingredients plus one or two techniques, whichever way you want to look at it, that have to be in there. And then otherwise you can go and explore those ingredients. You can see what you have on hand. We've talked about that in the past before. You have a bit of fennel here, some celery there. These are all things that can make it into our — I'm doing air quotes here — "green stuff" part of this dish. Use it up and don't feel bad if your grocery store doesn't have chervil or watercress as we've discussed.

ST: That's it.

TM: Now it's time to talk about technical considerations. Once again, our oyster guru. Our first and main one — talk me through shucking oysters, please.

ST: You got it. So again — reputable seafood monger. You are going to buy oysters in the shell. They're typically going to sell them to you by the piece, but you always buy them by the dozen. Get them home, get them under some cool water. Hopefully you've got at your kitchen sink a scrubby brush of some kind. Brush off any excess dirt. And this is especially true of this particular oyster — the Gulf Coast oyster is grown in some pretty muddy areas, so definitely going to want to scrub them off. Once you've got them cleaned and drained, lie the oyster down on a folded towel, kitchen towel that you don't care about — this towel's probably going to get trashed. Lie your oyster down on a folded kitchen towel with the hinge facing you. And then you're going to take an oyster knife. And an oyster knife is — I think a lot of people get confused between the oyster knife and the clam knife. The oyster knife is more pointed and has a thicker blade. A clam knife has a rounded tip and is flat like a butter knife. So you need an oyster knife to do this job. You're going to take the other half of the towel — so when I say put your oyster down on a folded towel, folded in half so it's thick enough that the oyster can sit on it, but with excess towel sticking up behind it — you're going to fold that over the top and that's what you're going to hold the oyster down with. With your non-dominant hand. With your dominant hand and that oyster knife, you're going to insert the tip into the hinge, pressing firmly, and then turn — twist the knife, basically like you're stabbing someone in the back. So you're going to turn that and that's going to lift up the upper shell away from the bottom shell. At that point, the oyster will generally give up the ghost. Then, using the sort of side of that blade — and when I say blade, this thing isn't sharp. Oyster knives aren't really sharp. They have a point, but they don't have a blade — you're going to go as tight as you can to the upper part of the shell and scrape across so that you separate the meat from the top shell, and remove it and discard it. Now you're going to take that same motion and clip it free from the bottom. And if you can, in one relatively smooth motion, flip the meat over. This is a technique that is used in oyster bars all over the world. All that really does is aesthetically put the plumper side of the meat facing up, which is gorgeous for when you're having them raw of course. In this case it won't really make a big visual difference, but it's just a good habit to get into — to always flip the meat. This also ensures that you've set it free. So when you get oysters on the half shell and they're not flipped over, you pick them up and every time you hope that it's just going to slide away, but sometimes it doesn't. So this is just a good technique to make repetitious. And that's it. Then you're going to set it down. And by the way, doing all this on the towel is giving you some shock absorption and also some balance, because once we cut this guy open, he is a cup, and that cup is full of both the meat and the brine. And we want to preserve that brine.

TM: Yeah. I think that's worth noting as well. You want to go with that cup side down. So you're going to have the flatter side on top — the cup side is going to be down — so that when you do open it, you are maintaining that brine, not losing it, which is a beautiful part of the experience. It's a big part of the experience.

ST: It's part of the dish. So exactly — once you've got it shucked and the upper shell removed and the meat flipped over, you go again. Using that towel is giving you the balance to not let that brine escape. Now you need to have a landing zone. So you want to land somewhere that's going to keep the oyster vertical so that none of that brine escapes.

TM: Very nice. And also extremely convenient for us here when we're talking about Oysters Rockefeller, because talking about a landing zone — good way to put it. You're going to need that. You're going to have something prepared for you to be able to put these in the oven without falling over, and also under the broiler. Also to procrastinate. So what are we doing here? This is our second, also kind of a non-negotiable when it comes to this dish.

ST: Yeah. So you're going to take your cookie sheet, sheet pan, whatever you've got in your kitchen that's got a lip around the edge. Not one of those super flat ones that cookies can slide off of — you have to have the lip. And you're going to pile in there some coarse salt or some rock salt. Or in lieu of that, a couple of sheets of aluminum foil that you've sort of crinkled so that they can then be how you set those oysters down and keep them level. So that we don't lose any of that delicious brine.

TM: Those also serve another function that I discovered through my research for this dish. Even heat distribution. And also maintaining heat retention when it comes to serving it.

ST: Yeah. The salt will heat up and the salt is acting as basically a pan that is form-fitting to the shell. Because you kind of press them down in it like you would press them down into snow. And when I worked in service and we would have oysters like this, baked in their own shell, that sheet pan would come out of the oven and I would pull that order off of it and put the next order on it — it's already hot — and then back into the oven. So it just keeps getting used over and over again.

TM: I imagine as well, if you're working in an establishment that has this on the menu, then you probably have some special dishware or plates to hold these oysters for this dish. Alternatively, if you were doing this at home, that can then make its way straight onto the table and you can eat it from there. And that's going to look cool.

ST: Sure. Which is gorgeous. Oftentimes you'll find places will fold peppercorns and pink peppercorns, and maybe even some stalks of hard herbs like rosemary or thyme, folded into the salt so that it's got a visual dynamic and there's an aromatic quality too.

TM: Oh, that sounds beautiful. Second — or next — technical consideration here, or final one from me. And it's not really that technical, but I think worth noting. So I said I've never made this dish before, but I made something very similar.

ST: There's plenty of things that are like this, for sure.

TM: When I worked in a bistro in London, we always had a snails dish on the menu. For that we made a Montpellier butter, which is very similar in essence to the compound butter that we're talking about today. It would've had all of those herbs. It would've had the addition of things like anchovies, cornichons, those capers again, which I think are things that you can put in here too. When we made that — picking herbs takes a lot of time. Separating all these things, doing it properly, breaking it down. So when we make our compound butter — don't just do what you need for that dish. In fact, that's going to be really hard to do it only for that dish.

ST: Oh, I see where you're going.

TM: Make a bunch. And when you've finished making it — I'm going to ask you to walk us through it now — but when you've finished making that butter, then either roll it up in some cling film, plastic wrap, whatever you want to call it. Or if you do have a vacuum-pack machine at home, portion it out in big squares and then put those in the freezer and have it on hand, because this is a very versatile ingredient for so many dishes, not just this.

ST: Oh, a hundred percent. This is a compound butter, which means you can use it for this specific use. We can do this exact same process if you're not an oyster fan. What about lobster knuckles? Certainly. Let's do this with shrimp. What about using a slice of this compound butter to put on top of a beautifully cooked steak, or a piece of halibut? Or frankly, this sounds great spread on toast and then put under the broiler until bubbly.

TM: I mean, that's how we would do it, especially if you're in the kitchen. You're busy, you're working, you don't have time for a proper meal. You take a slice of bread from somewhere, you slather it on there. I'm going to take some of that tomato sauce we serve the snails with too.

ST: Yeah, yeah.

TM: It's delightful. It's delicious.

ST: Well, also, I would just remind the listener that to make as little as you need for one round of Oysters Rockefeller would be too tedious. So compound the butter by compounding your efforts.

TM: We'll see if that one takes off.

ST: They don't all stick. The only way to misuse bitters is to not use bitters.

TM: Exactly. So — that compound butter. I'm going to pick all my herbs or my greens or whatever we have for this dish. Let's just talk about that start to finish now, and then when we get into preparation, we can just be like, look, you already have that, you made it earlier.

ST: Right. So — pick your parsley. Any of these we're saying if you're using them. Cut the scallions into a dice so that they'll more easily cook. And in the end we're going to puree this. So if you're using spinach or watercress, those can get picked and sliced down too. Celery — I would cut it into small pieces if I'm using it. Tarragon, chervil. We talked about fennel. If you want to throw in some capers, they're good as they are, you don't need to do anything to those. Going to finely dice some shallot — Tim's shallots — and some garlic. I want a little garlic in this. And again, I was surprised to find that the original probably doesn't have it. The lab results didn't say garlic. They didn't say shallot either. I've always put both. So then we've got all that stuff prepped. We've picked or sliced or gotten everything, all the green stuff ready to go. We've got our alliums — shallot and garlic — ready to go. In a pot, let's throw in enough butter to saute that shallot and garlic and get them translucent and softened. Then all at once, everybody in the pool — all the green guys, get those in there and get them wilted down. Once we're starting to see that we can stir everything around and see the bottom of the pan pretty easily — so it's drying out — this is when the absinthe goes in. No need to flambe, but be aware that it might try to, because it is high-proof alcohol and we're over the flame. So again, no need to flambe, but watch out that it might. Scrape around if there's any fond or anything like that. Let this cook until it's basically evaporated all that liquid as well, and then get it off the heat.

TM: And what we need to do from there is go into your food processor.

ST: And you want a processor and not a blender here?

TM: I think so, for sure. I don't want this to be one homogenous green mass. I want it to be green for sure. But I want to see little bits of herbs in there. I don't want it to just be one blanket color.

ST: Sure. So into your food processor — or frankly, on your board. You can put this on your board and just go at it with your knife. Like, have you ever — I like to make chimichurri this way, right? Just herbs and everything on the board, chopping them together, pouring oil right on top of it as I go until I get the consistency that I like. Same goes for making pesto. I would absolutely prefer to make pesto on the board like that, or in a mortar and pestle, than in a blender or food processor. The flavor seems more in-depth to me. The texture is better. So yes — for this one, either on your board or in a food processor.

TM: We are going spinach. We've committed to that. I just have a follow-up question on that front though — a consideration. You've got to cook out all that liquid, you've got to cook out all that water. We want to get this dry. And you're saying it's fine for me to go in at the same time with my herbs? So I'm going in with parsley at the same time as spinach, or am I cooking that spinach first a little bit?

ST: I think you can go in together.

TM: Okay. These herbs can withstand it, or they're not going to materially change?

ST: You're going to be fine. Okay. So now we're in the food processor or on the board and we're sort of chopping into a fine paste. And then we need to go in with our softened butter — room-temperature butter — until we create a compound butter. At which point then, as you said, you can line it up on film or parchment, roll it into a tight log, label it, and get that in your freezer. Or conversely, if we're about to make Rockefeller, keep it out at room temperature, because you want it soft for this.

TM: So we are going to make Rockefeller. We've shucked all of our oysters because we've been fortunate enough to get them in the shell fresh. Amazing. Fantastic. Then where are we going with this? We're going to line those up on that salt.

ST: So they're all sitting there already. They're already lined up. We've shucked them. They're on the salt.

TM: You are going — you've got your compound butter, you're keeping it at room temperature, that which you haven't put back in the fridge or the freezer. That's for later. Where are we going next with that? And you said it wants to be room temperature.

ST: I think it's just easier to get into the shell. It can certainly — again, once you've made this and it's a log in your freezer or fridge already, then just pull it out and cut it into slices and put it on top of each oyster, that's fine too. But I just like the aesthetic of getting it sort of to the edges of the shell when it's in this pureed form and soft. I can basically quenelle it right out of there. And then, holding the oyster in my hand, I can smooth it right on so that it's really shell edge to edge.

TM: Roughly speaking — how much butter per oyster, roughly speaking?

ST: Okay. Luckily this is not a diet show. I would say we're looking at probably a scoop of this stuff, which is going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 to 40% all the green things. So I would say we're looking at probably a teaspoon and a half —

TM: A teaspoon and a half.

ST: — possibly up to two teaspoons.

TM: Is that right? I'd read somewhere — is this true, that you don't want to be forcing it down? You don't want to press too hard?

ST: Yeah. Don't want to press too hard because you might lose the brine.

TM: Okay.

ST: But now you've got this good coating of our delicious green butter on top. And then just sprinkle over some Panko breadcrumb. And hopefully at this time we've already heated the oven to minimum 425, but we can go 450, 475 even. Because we're not going to be in there for long. And what we want to do is cook them hard and fast. So get them in the oven until they're bubbly, and then pull them out and put them underneath your broiler until they're brown.

TM: Optional finish. At what point would you add — I've seen Parmesan as well. A grated Parmesan on this. Where's that coming? Because I'm assuming that's taking shorter than the breadcrumbs, or it might burn easier.

ST: Yeah, if I'm going to use some Parmesan, I'm probably going to fold it right into the breadcrumbs.

TM: Ooh.

ST: So I'd have a little dish on the side that I'll fill with breadcrumbs and add some Parmesan or Pecorino Romano cheese. I might then also — and this seems counterintuitive — but you will slow the burning of your breadcrumbs if you add some fat. So if we have the cheese and the breadcrumbs in there, I might add in, per cup, literally a tablespoon of olive oil or melted butter and just stir it in. You don't want them to be wet, but you want them to be sort of coated, and that'll slow them from browning and burning too fast.

TM: Very nice. This sounds good. And at this point, as is always a good sign, I'm starting to get hungry just talking about this. Are we ready to eat these?

ST: I want to eat these. I love them.

TM: Question for you. If I can't get those Gulf oysters here in New York, I'm getting the selects. Where am I putting that? You said a brulee dish or something like that? What's my assembly looking like there? What's the best analog for being fresh in a shell?

ST: I mean, all the steps are going to still be the same. They just won't be individual. You'll have your creme brulee dish and it'll hold maybe four, maybe even six oysters in there. You'll coat the top of it with the butter and the breadcrumb situation. Bake in the oven till it's bubbly. Put it in the broiler till it's brown. I think that's pretty much exactly the same. But I think what you're alluding to is what I did for Thanksgiving this past year.

TM: Yeah, we can get into that. Let's do it.

ST: So I love Oysters Rockefeller and I love Thanksgiving. And I love being with my friends and cooking for them — more than Thanksgiving, I love being with my friends and cooking with them. So I decided that I was going to bring Oysters Rockefeller to the Thanksgiving gathering, but there were going to be 14 of us there. And the space, and the time-consuming nature of shucking oysters and all the things we just talked about, for that many people, seemed a bit of a foolish endeavor. Not that it would've been impossible, it just — I would've been trapped in the kitchen the whole time and not enjoying Thanksgiving with everyone. So I changed some of what we just talked about in this recipe and I made a casserole of Oysters Rockefeller. So I used a casserole dish. I made effectively a creamed spinach with all of the ingredients we just talked about, and the addition of some bacon lardons as well as some cream cheese and a little bit of cream to help make it sort of a creamed spinach. I didn't puree the situation. I coarsely chopped it. And then I laid a layer of that down in my casserole dish. On the side I took select oysters and lightly poached them in their own brine. Kind of the Jacques thing, the mi-cuit. I didn't cook them all the way, but I plumped them. I layered them across that spinach and then I layered another layer of that spinach on top. And then I topped the thing with the breadcrumbs and baked it till it was bubbly, put it underneath the broiler till it was brown, and it was — this was not eating peanuts from the shell. This was just scooping handfuls of peanuts. There was no sense of restraint. It was delicious. We devoured it. I made sure that I put enough oysters in there that it was a full layer of oysters. There was no gaps. And it was delicious. And it worked out. Genius. I looked it up to see if anyone was doing anything — I can't find anything kind of like it. Creamed spinach, Oyster Rockefeller casserole — I don't know. Anyway, it was delicious, it was a hit. I'm definitely going to be doing it every year, because oysters have made their way onto the Thanksgiving table in numerous ways over the years. Oyster stuffing is common, especially in the South where I'm from — cornbread and oyster stuffing. Obviously just raw oysters. Baked with just Parmesan and bacon is a common thing on the grill — a similar process. Just get them on the half shell and then get them on the grill with bacon and Parmesan cheese. That's delicious. So this was another way to get oysters on the Thanksgiving table that was gorgeous and delicious and quite the hit.

TM: Sounds delicious. Well, I'm getting very thirsty right now as well as hungry. So it’s time to talk about the drinks.

ST: Time to get Sauced.

TM: Cooking with booze —

ST: And drinking with food.

TM: Here we go. Let's drink with food. I'm going to kick us off with some pairings in the beginning.

ST: Go ahead.

TM: Obviously seafood dish. White wine. We've discussed these a lot and folks are going to be familiar with those, but all the usual candidates are going to come in. A nice, very searing, acidic, bubbly wine. Could be Champagne, could be Cremant, could be another one — if you want to go Cava, things like that. I'd maybe avoid Prosecco, because it doesn't have the same pressure, the same PSI and the same fine bubbles as a traditionally made sparkling wine. But we cover wine a lot. So I want to talk about — and I want to call back to one of those quotes earlier, Mr. Swift. Anyone who has drunk Guinness in New York and knows where to find a good Guinness in New York is probably familiar with the name Swift. So look — Guinness and oysters, much more classical when you're eating raw oysters as a pairing than cooked. But I tell you what, if I know of somewhere that makes this dish and I can also get a fantastic Guinness on tap, that's a really nice experience. Sat at the bar for me. A good Guinness, three or six — maybe I'm going three, just like Julia, stingy — just a little appetite, not even an appetizer, just to get me going. That to me sounds like absolute heaven.

ST: That's like a tapas, it's a pincho. Yeah, a hundred percent. Especially on a cool winter day, like we're suffering right now.

TM: Endlessly.

ST: I could absolutely see bellying up to a bar. And it's not an uncommon thing. I'm curious if the Swift does — I know the Swift has oysters. Do they do Oysters Rockefeller? But there were even some old, cool Guinness ads that show oysters. So oyster and Guinness — yeah, a hundred percent. I'm on board.

TM: I don't really know what it is scientifically or whatever, but it doesn't need to have a reason. There can just be rhyme, or poetry. Jonathan Swift — was he a poet? He was a writer.

ST: Sort of a philosopher, I would say.

TM: Maybe so. Well, we will need to consider that. And there's probably folks cursing us right now for not knowing exactly — or at least myself. But Sother, I know you do have a wonderful suggestion when it comes to a cocktail today.

ST: Yeah. I'm always going to try and find a way to make cocktails work with the food. And this one seems kind of a no-brainer under the guise of "grows together, goes together." Just down the street from Antoine's is Lafitte's Blacksmith Shop, which dates back to the early 18th century. It is considered the oldest building used as a bar in the United States, and it is the birthplace of a classic cocktail called the Obituary. The Obituary is simply a dry gin Martini — so gin, dry vermouth — and then it's laced with some absinthe.

TM: Oh.

ST: Right. So just down the street from Antoine's, not very many years between the two of these inventions — the Oysters Rockefeller and the Obituary cocktail — it seems to me like it's fitting. Plus, Martinis and oysters are another classic combination. You go to any worthwhile oyster house that has a happy hour, they probably have a Martini going with those oysters.

TM: Plus, just how fitting that you have so close to each other — oldest bar, oldest family-run restaurant. That's really cool. I really love that sentiment. It's also making me think about coming full circle in a way. You're talking about Martinis with an absinthe rinse. I love that.

ST: It's a little more than a rinse. Let me give you the spec. Two ounces of gin — to your spec on the ratio of dryness. So let's call it two ounces to a half an ounce to a half an ounce.

TM: Oh, okay. Very cool.

ST: It's a fair amount.

TM: So you are always building up to that standard three-ounce total. So I was thinking you were doing more of a glass rinse, like the Sazerac — another iconic drink from this city, which I do love, and I think it's my favorite dark spirit or at least whiskey cocktail. But oysters and rinses makes me think of oyster luges.

ST: Mm-hmm.

TM: So I want to share that here today. If anyone hasn't done that — so much fun. We're talking raw oysters though. Shuck some oysters. Take that oyster down. Find your smokiest, peatiest single malt Scotch. Put a little splash in there and then drink it away. It's going to bring all the brine, the liquid that's left over. Amazing. I also love that technique in a Martini glass. I think some people have given it a name. I don't know if that's true, but barely a bar spoon of peated Scotch to rinse out your Martini glass before a dry Martini.

ST: Yep.

TM: Phenomenal. And even better if enjoyed with oysters.

ST: Yeah, I think you're right. I worked at a restaurant years ago where our oyster setup involved mignonette, cocktail sauce, horseradish, hot sauce, and a little eyedropper bottle of Laphroaig 10 Year peated, so that the guest could put a few drops right on top of the oyster itself. And sip that down. And suddenly you've got the flavors of almost like a cold smoked oyster, but still in its raw state.

TM: Really? I love that.

ST: Really delicious.

TM: Really nice. You're just reminding me of that with that story of the oyster luge. Delicious. And then maybe take it further — think about other spirits that are smoky. A mezcal, or stuff like that. Keep it clear, get it involved. The Obituary though — I'm actually feeling like I'm failing as a Martini drinker and as a Martini lover for not having had that specific variation on the cocktail. Because it still is a Martini in my mind.

ST: It is, yeah. Absolutely. It's an augmented Martini. Well, so here we go. We've got a great opportunity on our hands here, Tim, to get you to cook a dish you've never cooked before and drink a drink that you've never drunk before and have them together.

TM: And what would I or anyone else in my situation be missing out on if I decided not to do so? If I decided never to cook this dish at least once in my life, what would I be missing out on?

ST: I think you'd be missing out on really getting yourself into some techniques that maybe you aren't flexing those muscles enough. You are going to get to shuck some oysters, which — and by the way, I don't think I mentioned — we talked about the oyster knife and the clam knife. If you don't have one, they're dirt cheap.

TM: Yeah.

ST: It's worth buying one. Even if you're only going to have oysters that you shuck yourself one time in your life.

TM: Can recommend the Dexter as well — good grip for the oyster, can recommend it.

ST: Yeah. Even the one with the white handle — I think it's Dexter that makes it. They're at every seafood house you go to. They'll have them there. They're like three to five dollars. Absolutely worth getting yourself an oyster knife, even if you're only going to wind up using it one time. So anyway, back to the question — what are you missing out on? You're missing out on understanding these techniques and understanding how demystified they can be if you do them yourself. I think there's probably a good portion of the listener out there who loves oysters on the half shell and who's never shucked an oyster. That seems weird, right? So I think you're missing out on edifying yourself about something you already love.

TM: While we're talking about buying stuff — I will never miss an opportunity to add another gadget to my kitchen and my household. Please do not tell my wife — she hates it when I buy all these things. Gabriela, sorry. But for this specifically, I had seen folks online using these wooden blocks where you can put the oyster into it to sort of hold it while you're shucking it. Is that worth it? Is that one of those things where — complete scam, or does that have its worth?

ST: Okay, so I described how to shuck the oyster using just a towel. This wooden block substitutes itself for the towel in that situation, but it sort of secures the oyster while you're manhandling it and trying to pop it open. My thinking on that thing is it's like training wheels on your bike. You need them, then absolutely — you don't need them. So you're going to buy this thing that is going to teach you how to do this thing, and then you don't need it anymore. So I don't know the value based on not knowing what those things cost. But if it's inexpensive and it's going to encourage you to shuck some oysters on your own, then go for it.

TM: The training wheels.

ST: The training wheels. But it's going to teach you how to not need it.

TM: Yeah. And I think that sort of justifies its worth. And you pass it on to someone else — hey, this is what got me shucking oysters, take it.

ST: Yeah, exactly.

TM: Me having never cooked this dish, I can't say what folks will be missing out on, just to answer our final question on the show here today. But I do just want to put things into perspective. Antoine's has been keeping record of every single time they've sold this dish. They're at 5 million and counting, I think by now. And they tell you when you buy it — it comes on your ticket or whatever — what number order you are.

ST: I love that.

TM: Which is really cool. And just to think about that — 5 million orders, one secret recipe, a name borrowed from the richest man who ever lived, or who was alive at the time.

ST: Borrowed. And he didn't like it.

TM: And he didn't like it. What's not to love? Oysters Rockefeller, folks. I'm going to be giving it a go. We're going to go and have it together as well at different places around. I know we really want to do this as well — maybe we'll see if Swift has it. Folks, if you at home are going to make it, please remember, tag us at @sauced.pod.

ST: Will you even bring that up? That sounds cool too. If you're going to make this dish at home, obviously tag us in all that stuff — that really thrills us. But also, if you're going out to have it, take a photo and tag us in that one too. Let us know we inspired you to go out and eat Oysters Rockefeller.

TM: It makes our day, everyone. It really does. In the meantime, before we can do that — it's time to put on the apron, break out the shaker, and let's get cooking —

ST: And drinking.

TM: Cheers.

ST: Cheers, buddy.