Tim McKirdy: Sother we're taking a little bit of a break from our previous programming today in the sense that we kicked off the show with four French classics.

Sother Teague: Yep.

TM: Today's an All American affair.

ST: Let's go! I was about to say — I liked that you said kickoff.

TM: Uh, now that's close, but we haven't got word back from the lawyers yet whether or not we're allowed to name a specific event by name. That's happening very soon. I mean, we want these to be evergreen anyway. But let's call out the elephant in the room.

ST: This is a game day special.

TM: This is a big game day special.

ST: The big game day.

TM: To the tune of —

ST: Oh yeah, this is incredible.

TM: Reports from the National Chicken Council — so you know this data is accurate. They projected in January 2025 that America was set to consume 1.47 billion wings for the big game. If you considered every person in America, it's something like enough for four wings each.

ST: That's every person who can eat. So infants are out. Vegetarians and vegans are out. Maybe dietary restrictions, whatever. We can say that every human alive in America could have probably six wings.

TM: 1.5 billion — let's round it up here — of anything consumed on one evening, anywhere food wise, that's a good reason for us to kick off our American coverage with wings.

ST: I love them. Let's go.

TM: Hit me as we like to do at the beginning. Hit me with a personal or professional association that you have to this dish. And again, it's not a dish in the sense of Bourguignon or whatnot, but it is more than an ingredient, let's put it that way.

ST: I definitely worked at, when I was younger, at a place that had wings on the menu. So I have a very small professional association, but personally I love them. And I think we'll talk about this throughout the episode — I love the classic ones kind of the most.

TM: Yeah.

ST: And when we say classic, we're saying buffalo.

TM: Exactly.

ST: This is an episode about wings. It's gonna be heavily buffalo focused.

TM: But not solely buffalo. So we're just calling it wings.

ST: Wings.

TM: For myself, this is one of those ones where I have an immediate and very clear moment that comes to mind. I've obviously mentioned this is an inherently American and American culture dish, not something that you encounter as much abroad. I think things have probably changed now, but definitely growing up in the U.K., not really something that was embraced. Certainly nowhere near as much as here. So I had an experience. I had moved to Astoria. It wasn't the first place I lived in New York, but I was living in Astoria and there was a neighborhood bar Dillinger's, it's called — just a classic neighborhood bar, nothing exceptional or overly notable about it, but classic neighborhood bar. I went one afternoon on my own. There was baseball on the TV. I was sat at the bar and I had an order of wings. Now that might seem like the most natural or normal thing for most of the people listening to this, but those are three things that you simply don't get elsewhere, or it's the combination of the neighborhood American bar experience. Sitting at the bar is an American thing. It's not like going and getting a pint at a pub and then immediately leaving the bar so someone else can get their drink.

ST: Mm-hmm.

TM: The baseball on the TV, America's pastime, and a good old order of wings. I mean, I'm never gonna not think about that when you ask me about my associations for wings.

ST: I mean, that's great. I think you almost did it right. In America, when we watch baseball — hotdogs. Wings are for football.

TM: I wanted some of those peanuts as well. Desperately wanted some peanuts in the shells, but we didn't get those either.

ST: Yeah.

TM: But good spot. And you know, if I'm ever in Astoria, I'm always gonna swing by there.

ST: Let's go. I'll go with you.

TM: Let's do it. That's our little intro to the dish. We're gonna take a super fast break right now, and then when we come back we're gonna get into the origins of the chicken wing.

***

TM: All right. We are back, Sother. I know I've asked you before, but you know, for as long as we've been recording already today, I've been itching to ask and get your take on something.

ST: What's that?

TM: Chicken or the egg?

ST: It's the egg. The egg came first. It's not debatable.

TM: Okay. Alright. That's out the way. That's the origin. Those are the origins of chicken.

ST: Those are the origins of chicken.

TM: As you like to call them — the muscles of the land.

ST: Do I call 'em that? Because of the way I stack the bones.

TM: But this is one of those areas where we are gonna be focusing very specifically on buffalo and buffalo wings. I want you to kick it off for us today with the sort of widely accepted narrative at the bar and the stories connected to that bar.

ST: Well, the way you say "widely accepted" is already putting me on my heels and making me think this probably isn't the truth. But buffalo wings, from even a cursory look at the internet, says that they were invented in 1964 at the Anchor Bar in Buffalo, New York, by co-owner Theresa Bellissimo, who improvised a late night snack for her son by deep frying chicken wings, tossing them in a cayenne pepper and butter emulsion, and serving them with celery and blue cheese dressing to effectively use up some surplus wings that they kind of had on hand. That's the story that is out there the most, but I can tell by your voice you're about to break that.

TM: Well, I think what's interesting about the Bellissimo Anchor Bar Buffalo story here — they claim March 4th, 1964. I'm glad that you went with Theresa there. Because Theresa, by all accounts, is the person who made these. The one where she's sort of knocking around at night — some versions say her son Dominic was bartending and his friends came in, so she knocked up this late night snack for them. I think importantly as well is that she tossed them in hot sauce and butter. But Theresa's husband, Frank — father of Dominic — claims that this wasn't just a sort of thing that came to be, or an accident in the moment or serendipitous. He says that the meat supplier accidentally sent them wings instead of backs and cages that they would normally use for stock. And he said that he had this moment where he sort of saw these wings looking at him — there's a quote we can maybe find later — looking at him just begging to be cooked. And then he asked Theresa, hey, cook these up and let's put them in this sauce. The fact that one family in one location can't even agree on how it came to be is kind of interesting to me. But that is definitely — if you look up the origins of buffalo wings.

ST: Well, it happened in a bar. And oftentimes the history of what happens in bars gets blurry by the nature of being at the bar. It's hard to jot everything down if you're buzzed.

TM: Yes, definitely it is. The important things to take away from that story are hot sauce and butter, blue cheese and celery. And these apparently were pulled off of — 'cause the Anchor Bar was an Italian restaurant.

ST: Oh, okay. That I didn't know.

TM: It was an Italian joint.

ST: Very Italian name, Bellissimo.

TM: Exactly. So they had like crudité boards and whatnot. So they would've had cheese and maybe they had the celery leftover. And some versions of the story as well were like, these were being given out for free at a point where some people might consider wings an ingredient that's not even good enough to be given out for free in a bar.

ST: Hmm.

TM: So that's the popular version.

ST: Okay. Hit me with the counter narrative.

TM: I'm not gonna call any of these the real versions. I'm gonna call this the counter narrative. So a man called John M. Young, John Young from Stockton, Alabama, moves to Buffalo and opens a restaurant called John Young's Wings and Things on Jefferson Avenue. It was in Buffalo in the early sixties.

ST: Wings and Things. Right in the name.

TM: Right in the name. So you have this one narrative from Anchor Bar — no one's using wings to eat, they're using them only for stocks, or we are the first people to cook these and give them out. I think that's easily, you know —

ST: And I would interject, just to touch on what you just said, people weren't eating wings then in the sixties. Chickens were nowhere near the size they are today. We weren't as good at factory farming. So the chickens were much smaller, so the wings would've been pretty small. Just throwing that in. So to open a restaurant and have wings in the name of the restaurant is probably a pretty bold move for that time.

TM: Like, as a dish, the juice definitely isn't worth the squeeze. That's why you don't see people out there frying quail wings. You know what I mean? Like, "would you like any real food with your side of partridge wings?" Like, it's just not — there's not enough meat there on that bone.

ST: Right.

TM: But certainly John Young was running Wings and Things in the early sixties. He came from the south. Definitely, I don't think anyone can argue about the fact that the black community and black culture would have been eating wings in the south. This is something John was on record as having said later. Here's where things get into the — it's up to you to decide or your interpretation of it. Because John also, you know, while he was alive and recounted this story many times, he says he served this with something called Mambo, otherwise known as Mambo sauce. We can get into that. And also crucially, he served the whole wing. He wasn't cutting them up into the flats and the drums that we associate with wings when we eat them. And that certainly happened at Anchor. So the question about origin becomes — is it about just using wings as an ingredient and cooking them and serving them? Or is it the sauce? Like what defines the buffalo wing?

ST: Well, I think you just said the word. I think wings can be pretty much any interpretation. They are a blank canvas that you can do whatever you want with. But once you say the word buffalo, then we're talking about a specific dish. There's wings and there's buffalo wings.

TM: I love that you have said that. And I love that, you know, we did chat about that a little bit before, but I had this moment of clarity as well, because we were discussing, well, how do we approach this episode? There's so much to cover if you're just talking about wings in general. But I like that — wings being the category, buffalo being the style. And maybe we can touch upon some of the other styles later on.

ST: A hundred percent.

TM: Fantastic. So that's the origin. Now let's get into our wonderful culinary luminaries and what they have to say about this dish. And I'm gonna let you kick it off with Jacques Pépin.

ST: I didn't find anything from anybody of note talking about wings specifically. There is a video of Jacques — there's a video of Jacques Pépin cooking everything. He's been on TV. He's like the Truman Show basically. But there is an episode that I found where he makes wings. He coats them in beaten egg yolk first — yolk specifically — and then crushes some oily breadcrumbs with some seasonings and puts the wing into that and bakes them. Didn't look delicious or appetizing to me. I think you said that sounded like an affront to —

TM: It's a crime against culture.

ST: A crime against culture. And that is why folks —

TM: We have decided today to not go to our usual culinary luminaries. We wanted to bring that up. But also if you were there sitting through that going, "why is Jacques Pépin the person you're going to?" — he's not. And also, this is exactly further proof —

ST: Cautionary tale.

TM: The fine French cooking techniques don't always work out great in other use case scenarios.

ST: So no real need to dig into luminaries on this one. I think we can navigate wings on our own and we'll speak mostly to buffalo wings, but then the recipe that I wanna talk about is nowhere near buffalo wing. It's just wings.

TM: So I have a different culinary luminary for us. Because it's not Jacques and it's not even a chef. And those watching on YouTube right now will know from the table here — we have a couple of books. Folks, these are not just for show. We do have some books here.

ST: We can read.

TM: The first of which on this top pile is from the author Calvin Trillin. Calvin Trillin, longtime writer for The New Yorker, was described as "the Walt Whitman of American Eats" by Craig Claiborne, who was a longtime New York Times food editor and restaurant critic. Why are we talking about Calvin Trillin? Well, Trillin in August 1980 wrote what is largely considered — and I think it's hard to argue against this — the definitive early history of the American chicken wing, the buffalo chicken wing. In fact, the title of that article is called "An Attempt to Compile a Short History of The Buffalo Chicken Wing." This piece, he goes to visit longtime friends he had in Buffalo and tries to get to the bottom of this. What's interesting about it is that that article very much was the one that cemented the Bellissimos and Anchor Bar's claim as being the origin, ground zero.

ST: But he hit it right there in the title. "An attempt."

TM: An attempt. And he makes that part of the article as well. It's there in the lead, the opening, and also there in his conclusion — which is like, writing history, even if you're only 10 years removed from something, 15 years removed from something, it's still really hard.

ST: Yeah.

TM: Calvin Trillin, prior to writing about food for The New Yorker, was someone who documented and had a column about what was happening in America in that time with respect to civil rights and other causes too. Simultaneously, he's writing about food. He does interview the Anchor Bar people, but he also interviews John Young. And the reason I wanna bring this up is just to do with history and documenting something like this. He devotes two thirds of the piece to the Bellissimos and also just eating in Buffalo and how big a phenomenon it's become in the city. Then as a kind of afterthought — and he introduces it as during his last night in Buffalo — he happens to have a conversation with John Young. And the way he presents it is kind of "just happens to." It's like, "I met a man on my last evening there who also claims to be the inventor of the wings." And then Calvin outlines a lot of the stuff that we're talking about here as well. Like, his wings are very different to the ones that have become famous. Different preparation. John Young, also in the late 1960s, left Buffalo because of deep racial tensions there, segregation, riots that were happening. So he left there, thus leaving the place where he might have been able to build a bigger legacy when it comes to his preparation, the way he was doing it. But I just think it's like — if anyone in the world were better placed to cover this in a way where they dug deeper into John Young's claims and also gave more of the credit to the black community and this as an ingredient that had been embraced and eaten for a long time. This is unique for us in that it's a modern enough invention. It's taking place here in America. And I think not only is this food, this is food as a vehicle for us to dissect the way that history gets made and history gets recounted.

ST: It seems almost out of character for him to not highlight higher the achievements of John, given that he wrote about civil rights movements and things like that. So it seems a little bit out of character.

TM: One thing I really liked — my last note on Calvin Trillin's article about buffalo wings — is that he correctly points out that in the debate for who came up with this or whatnot, Theresa Bellissimo is as inclined as anyone in the world to be quite annoyed about all of this. And that's why I said I'm glad you led with Theresa. 'Cause she's the one who made it. Whether that was for her husband or son's friends or whatever. But those are the guys that always get the recognition and the legacy. And it's tied into that. And I'm glad that he also points that out in his piece. He says, irrespective of whether it was Frank or Dom, it was Theresa.

ST: Well, and I think, you know, as we've already kind of pointed out in our conversation here, maybe John was serving — well maybe, again, in the title of his restaurant that was built and open and operating, Wings and Things — so definitely John was serving wings, but he wasn't serving Buffalo wings.

TM: Exactly.

ST: And that's the real twist to the whole thing. Like they may have in some small way appropriated the cooking of this particular cut, but they engineered what is now the standard bearer.

TM: Exactly. I think those are all great points. And worth saying as well that the Bellissimo family didn't go on to have a chain or make any substantial money out of this. Frank Bellissimo is no relation to the Franks of Frank's Hot Sauce either. They just both happen to be Frank. This is generally a section where we have a quote, so I'm gonna drop a quote here now that's also gonna answer something else for us.

ST: Okay.

TM: So, Frank Bellissimo speaking to Calvin Trillin for this article said, "Anybody can sell steak, but if you can sell odds and ends of one thing or another, then you're doing something."

ST: I mean, this is the entire notion of nose to tail, which we constantly applaud. And this is a legacy that's obviously gonna stand the test of time. And you know, again, back to your statement at the top of the show — 1.5 billion wings. Now, are they all buffalo? That's the thing, right?

TM: Definitely not.

ST: Right.

TM: What I do like about Frank's quote there, though, that also definitively answers — as if any other proof were needed — prince or pauper's dish, or a dish for royalty or a dish for the people.

ST: This is a dish for the people. Exactly. This is a dish for the everyman. And again, the incredible malleability of the presentations that you can come up with are endless, suited to your own taste. But again — buffalo is the best.

TM: So there, that's been our origin. Our slightly difficult, slightly different quotes today. Luminaries. Prince or pauper. We're making good speed here. Let's go.

***

TM: And we are back with a bang, Sother. Ingredients — I mean, the name is in the name of the episode, it's wings. Let's start by doing an examination, an exploration of wings. You teased a few little technical names earlier. What are we talking about here when we talk about the wing? Because if you were to just chop that arm — doing air quotes — off of the chicken, we're not gonna be dealing with all of it, are we?

ST: Not really. No. So there's really three parts to the wing. One of them we don't necessarily use in American cuisine, although it gets used in other cuisines. That's the tip — the wing tip. Not a lot of meat there. There's some cartilaginous material that is certainly edible and in Asian cuisines, that texture is highly prized and valued. Then you're gonna split the other two segments of the wing apart from one another. One is the drumette — that's the part that's gonna be closest to the body of the bird. And the other one is known as the flat or the flapper. I don't know why those two names are for that one piece. So if you split those off, that's your three pieces of wing.

TM: And the great thing when it comes to chicken butchery, as you mentioned in our Coq au Vin episode, is that you're cutting joints. And so if you can feel it with your finger, then you can find where those two joints meet. And even a blunt knife's gonna go through that if you're just cutting in the right way. So the stakes are low.

ST: Again, stakes are low when you're breaking down your own bird. However, it is not my normal suggestion that you buy something that you could easily butcher yourself, but you buy it already butchered. But if you're gonna have wings, you're only gonna get four from every bird, so you're gonna have to buy a lot of birds to make one healthy order of wings.

TM: Yeah.

ST: So you gotta just find a butcher who's got a bunch of wings on hand and buy 'em.

TM: Another thing to note here, right, which is a great point for now — folks will be very used to in their supermarkets seeing these big bags of frozen wings and different sizes or different indications of what your mix is gonna be, roughly speaking. Is there a difference, marked difference, when it comes to using fresh ingredients here or frozen?

ST: With chicken wing, I don't think you're gonna have much of a difference going on. They're pretty meaty, fatty — fat to lean ratio is pretty high in this product. And so they can handle being frozen and thawed back out.

TM: Yeah.

ST: So that's how they get sold because again, only gonna get four pieces of wing off of any given bird. Even in the factory setting where they're cranking 'em out, you're gonna have to keep throwing into that pile before you have enough to sell to someone. And the advancements in freezing even in our lifetimes have been incredible. It's called IQF — individually quick frozen. That's how you get your frozen peas.

TM: Frozen berries as well.

ST: Yeah. They're not just in a big lump. If you try and freeze 'em at your house, they're gonna be in a big lump 'cause you're not freezing them fast enough. Nor are you freezing them separate from one another. The best result for any protein especially, but anything really, is fastest possible freezing with slow thawing. So it's called slacking. We want to get those chicken wings frozen as quickly as possible. Then once you buy them or whatever, get 'em home, what you wanna do is just put them in your fridge and let 'em thaw over the course of a couple of days. Then that's gonna come out with the least possible structural, cellular, structural damage to the product so that you'll still have a great experience with what you're eating.

TM: Next one — sauce. Frank's. We mentioned Frank's. Frank's Red Hot.

ST: Yeah.

TM: What is it?

ST: Frank's Red Hot is a pretty standard vinegar-based cayenne pepper sauce. There are several that are in the similar vein. Frank's, Crystal, Texas Pete — I think those are kind of the big three for making buffalo wings. But Frank's I think is the original. And what you're really getting out of these is a tremendous amount of vinegar, which gets your salivary glands going. They are pretty salty, all of them, because the peppers have been fermented. These are fermented hot sauces. So the peppers have been basically buried in a salt and water solution to create fermentation, and then they get pureed into the vinegar. So you get salt, vinegar, and not a ton of heat.

TM: No.

ST: Like generally speaking, the standard buffalo wing is not incredibly hot. Now there are places, of course, that have amped it up and you go get these challenges — "can you even eat one?" And I actually kinda like that. I'm a chili head. I make my own hot sauces. I sell them. But for buffalo wings, I'm not looking for heat.

TM: Mm-hmm.

ST: Really, I'm looking for that tang and saltiness.

TM: Classically or traditionally, you would order one of three ways — mild, medium, or hot. And I don't even think the hot is getting close to hot of the modern generation of those sort of challenges that you're talking about. Frank's is cayenne-based, pH of below 3.5. So there's that acidity right there. And the Scoville value is 30 to 50,000. So pretty tame.

ST: Yeah. That's nothing.

TM: The Frank's Red Hot originally was made by a guy called Frank. It's more orange than red, but in culinary terms, it's fairly red. You wouldn't know. Have you told people before?

ST: Yeah, I've told you I'm colorblind.

TM: And not particularly hot. It's more vinegary. But I guess one for three is good.

ST: Yeah.

TM: Nice one, Frank. I do like those other ones though. I do like Crystal. Is that Louisiana?

ST: Yeah.

TM: Yeah. That's good. Check that out folks if you have the opportunity and if you haven't before. Crystal's Louisiana. Where's Frank's made? And then Texas Pete is not made in Texas, nor by a man named Pete.

TM: Not for two. I forget where Frank's — I was looking this up earlier. He has no association to Buffalo. And there is no evidence to suggest that Anchor Bar on their version originally used Frank's. And also, just while we're talking about sauce here real quick, John Young — John Young's family have reopened a restaurant, but also they have put out a commercial version of his Mambo sauce. You can go and check it out. They have a website. The website's got a fun video about this sort of history. So if you want to try that, maybe you wanna do the Anchor versus John Young, the King of Wings. Do the challenge to try it out for yourself, folks.

ST: Side by side.

TM: One other ingredient we do need though — butter. Butter is always going to be mixed with your hot sauce. What is the point of that?

ST: That's gonna create the emulsification. It's also gonna coat your mouth with a dairy product, which is a little bit more clingy than just that vinegar. Hot sauce is quite thin. It's just gonna give your sauce some texture and a buttery quality. And it's a pretty staggering amount. It's basically 50-50.

TM: I think medium is two to one, hot sauce to butter, is the ratio that I have down here. But it's a lot of butter. Also that richness from the butter is like — rather than taming heat, it's probably doing a better job to round out the vinegar. Like the amount of sauce that's needed —

ST: Yeah. I mean, again, this is pretty much a vinegar and butter emulsion. We're just emulsifying these two things together so that we get that mouth coating and very buttery quality fighting against the vinegar, and again, giving some adhesion. It's gonna coat the chicken. Butter's gonna, you know — "creamy" is the wrong word, but it does take on a more cream-like texture.

TM: I think this is something that probably could come into any part of the show. We'll bring it up now. I'm surprised we haven't brought it up already, actually. It's the idea that, like, your outcomes — what are you looking for from the best possible version of this preparation? You're looking for crispy skin. And you want the sauce to coat the wing. That combination is actually pretty difficult to achieve, or to achieve well.

ST: It is, because what you wind up making — I've only ever heard David Chang refer to it as this — but like, "crisp soggy."

TM: Yes.

ST: I think you wanna get your chicken as crisp as you can — we'll talk about that — and then you toss it at the last second in this sauce and then you eat them. There's not a lot of delay.

TM: Nice. Ingredients and non-negotiables for us today are kind of one and the same thing. So we're just gonna slide on into the non-negotiables section right now.

***

TM: But arguably, we mentioned this is a dish for three things. And here we go. I'm gonna let you kick it off. Number one for us.

ST: Chicken wings.

TM: Must have wings.

ST: Yes. Must have wings.

TM: Gotcha. I'll let you take a second one as well there 'cause that's kind of like —

ST: Hot sauce.

TM: Hot sauce.

ST: A pretty standard vinegar-based cayenne pepper sauce. Like the ones we mentioned. Frank's being probably the leader. Texas Pete. Crystal if you're down in the south.

TM: Third one, seeing as how we're on this nice little roll — butter.

ST: Yeah. Must have butter. So those three ingredients. They are all non-negotiables. There's no way to make this dish without 'em. But I would throw — and I think I speak for both of us, I'm about to find out — I never buy salted butter.

TM: Never.

ST: Okay, great. So it's unsalted butter, so you can have that control. And you go through your butter fast enough. The whole reason of salting butter was so that it would last longer. You go through butter fast enough. So unsalted butter, because again, that hot sauce is quite salty.

TM: Yes. And you're reducing it. And you're seasoning the wings. I'm gonna hit us with two other ingredients that I believe to be non-negotiables. Peeled celery.

ST: Thank you for peeling your celery.

TM: Do you not peel your celery?

ST: I peel it every single time. Somewhat compulsively.

TM: Even if I don't have a peeler.

ST: Yeah. You don't need one.

TM: Has to be there. It was there in the early days.

ST: It's a crunchy, wet foil to this spicy, salty — it's your relief every time. It's a relief from the heat. It's a relief from the saltiness. It's palate refreshing.

TM: Apart from hummus, I don't think celery has ever shone brighter than in this preparation. Like, to your point, you need that water, that crunch gives you the texture. It's refreshing. It's peppery. This is the perfect accompaniment for wings and it's a non-negotiable for me.

ST: Yep.

TM: What's the other ingredient that's a non-negotiable?

ST: Blue cheese.

TM: Talk to us about it.

ST: Gotta have a blue cheese dressing. In this scenario, your blue cheese dressing doesn't necessarily have to be as vinegar heavy as you might put it on your salad. So it needs to be creamy, but not necessarily tart. I think I use red wine vinegar when I make blue cheese dressing, and I use a pretty healthy dose of it when I'm making it for a salad. But if I'm making it for wings, I'm drawing some of that back because I'm getting that vinegar hit from the wing itself, that has all that hot sauce on there. But you need it. Again, it's another layer of dairy, and that dairy is gonna help coat your mouth so that you can get all those flavors. And it's also a really good juxtaposition between that salty, spicy, hopefully crispy, soggy wing. And you're adding a new layer of not only texture, but aroma and flavor to this thing. It's literally — not literally — it is the icing on the cake. Cake is good, but if it's not frosted, it's not quite there.

TM: If we were to break that ingredient down a little further — if I was gonna say what are you expecting in a classic blue cheese dressing or sauce for this? Like, what's our base, what's a go-to blue cheese? We don't need to go too far being like, "it has to be this specific," but for those who don't know, or to save someone who might go and get something out of a packet and add water to or whatever, like, save them from it.

ST: Sure. I didn't research a blue cheese dressing, but they're pretty easy to make. Let's go in with about equal parts of some mayonnaise and sour cream. And then use a funkier blue cheese. So like maybe a Danish blue. I don't think you need to spend the kind of money on like a Roquefort.

TM: King of cheese, cheese of kings.

ST: That's what they say. I think you're the king of cheese. You don't need to spend Roquefort money on this, but you do want something that's pungent and funky. And you're gonna crumble in — if we're going equal parts of your mayonnaise and sour cream — you're gonna crumble in probably at least a third again. And I do want it kind of crumbled in. I want it to have some texture. And then you can bulk it up and bring some tartness with some red wine vinegar. And then of course some healthy cracks of black pepper. And that's a pretty straightforward — I don't think this needs to be rocket surgery, as my dad would say.

TM: No, I was starting to see where you get some of these from. I've got a couple more non-negotiables to discuss and swing through here. Again, skin must be crispy. Has to be.

ST: Okay.

TM: Or that has to be the goal. Doesn't matter if you don't get there. Well, it does a little bit, but you have to be aiming for a crispy product at the end.

ST: Yeah.

TM: Naked. I don't want these breaded. That will be a wing preparation, but not for the wings we're talking about today.

ST: Agreed.

TM: And then I think also, yeah, we're gonna split them into those drums and those flats. We're not going John Young whole for this dish.

ST: I think that is gonna offer us more surface area and more eatability.

TM: I got one final one for you here today. Bones.

ST: Oh. That's a non-negotiable. You want 'em on the bone.

TM: The wings must have bones. And this — I'm saying this with good reason. There's an ongoing lawsuit in federal court right now. Halim versus Buffalo Wild Wings, Inc. In Illinois in the federal court, playing out to this day. It's a class action lawsuit against Buffalo Wild Wings. Do you know why?

ST: I am guessing because someone didn't get bones in their wings. I dunno. Where are you going with this?

TM: Buffalo Wild Wings put "boneless wings" — I'm doing air quotes here — on the menu. They placed them in the section of the menu next to the real wings. These boneless wings were of course white meat. They were deep fried breaded chicken. So the plaintiff is saying these are glorified chicken nuggets. These are not boneless wings. The argument was placing them in the wing section was misleading customers into paying more for them. Buffalo Wild Wings' response was to go on Twitter — 'cause that's the smart thing to do — and say, "Don't worry. Our boneless wings are all white meat. Our hamburgers contain no ham. And our buffalo wings contain 0% buffalo."

The case continues, and all I'm gonna say is that is our Porco Pointless Lawsuit of the Week.

ST: Nicely done. Oh, man.

TM: I thought I'd stick a little Porco in there for you.

ST: I've got 1:42 later.

TM: We went — are we gonna go two today? We missed one a couple of weeks ago, so we need to get two on. But that's our non-negotiables right there. So we've covered technique for that. We've covered ingredients, preparations, outcome. And again, folks — bones.

ST: Bones.

TM: They must be in there.

ST: I agree.

TM: Alright, well we shall take another quick break right here on Sauced, and then we're gonna be back with some scientific technical considerations.

***

TM: We are back.

ST: Are we going to the lab?

TM: Have you got your lab coat?

ST: I got my chore coat somewhere. I'm ready to do some chores.

TM: Ready to do some science is what I'm ready to do.

ST: Alright.

TM: Let's talk about the science of frying. I personally left that out of non-negotiables because I think it's unreasonable to say that a method that most people can't do in their homes or probably shouldn't be doing in their homes makes it — doesn't make it a wing.

ST: I don't think it's a "can't do," and I don't even think it's a "shouldn't do." I just don't think it's a thing people will do. You know what I mean? Which — the result is the same. People aren't gonna deep fry at home.

TM: No.

ST: So yeah. Let's talk about some science then. How can we science our way around not using the deep fryer?

TM: Or before we do that, if it's cool with you — the science of crispy skin, just in any way. But let's talk about deep frying first. Like why does deep frying create the best results here? What are we doing when we're frying? I know that might seem 101, but actually when you get into the science of this, it's fascinating and there's a lot to learn.

ST: There is. I think what I would say first is I believe that most people don't realize that frying is a dry heat method. Because they — because oil is a liquid. If you can envision in your mind that the oil itself is the surface of a pan, then that pan form fits all the way around whatever product you're putting in there. And I can tell you that when I worked at a very famous and well-known restaurant, we had lamb chops on the menu sometimes. And one of the techniques we would use is to bomb them into the fryer to get a perfect crust all over them. Because the oil surrounds the entire thing. There's no part that isn't being touched at that moment. And again, it's a dry heat method.

TM: Yeah. It's a concept that you've brought up in previous episodes, and I want to get into it, return to it here — the Maillard reaction. It's something that comes up a lot because it is a very important part of cooking and cooking well or achieving good outputs. So that happens optimally at 280 to 330 degrees Fahrenheit. You will see, or if you attempt to deep fry wings at home, you should be cooking them at 375 degrees Fahrenheit, or you should be aiming for that with the oil. That means you're well above that point at which the Maillard reaction takes place, but also you're below something like 400 degrees where you're gonna burn, but the inside of it is gonna be raw.

ST: Right.

TM: If we take this even geekier — what is steam and water and moisture doing in all of this equation? Because, you know, you mentioned this is a dry cooking technique, but if you introduce liquid into it, we have some problems. So what's going on here with water and moisture? What's the dangers?

ST: So anytime you put something into the fryer, the bubbling that you see is the escape of steam that's being created. So any moisture will turn into steam when heated enough. It's phase changing, subliming, if you will. That's what that word means. So let's — the chicken wing is our example here. So the wing goes into the oil. It's completely submerged. We see bubbles. Those bubbles are the heat of the oil turning the moisture in the chicken into steam. So the steam is escaping. That's what's happening.

TM: Mm-hmm.

ST: And as long as that steam is escaping, that means nothing can go in. So picture yourself when you go swimming and you dive under the water and you slowly exhale through your nose so that maybe water won't go up your nose. As long as air's coming out, no water's going in. That's what's happening when you fry something. So as long as there's bubbles escaping, there's no oil going in.

TM: It's serving two purposes, both of which are great. You're getting crispy skin ultimately, but also you're not getting a greasy, oily interior.

ST: Right.

TM: So we said that Maillard reaction takes place between 280 and 330. You know, starts to take place, or that's why we wanna be higher than that, 'cause that's not gonna release enough steam to stop that happening. And conversely, the higher you go, the more chance you're burning before you've cooked it throughout. That is also why our next technical consideration is gonna be getting these wings as dry as possible before we cook them. Because if you have a wet skin when it's going into that hot fryer oil, you're gonna get a violent explosion. And a massive temperature drop — but that's probably gonna be less on your mind than the explosion that's going on in your kitchen.

ST: Right. You know, think about when you're cooking something, even shallow frying in the pan, and even just little drips get in there, it sizzles and pops. This is that times 10 or more. And yeah, the temperature drop is gonna happen. So to be honest, you probably wanna get your oil a good five to 10 degrees higher than your target so that when you bomb in your wings, it'll drop it to where you want it to be, and hopefully it'll be able to maintain from there.

TM: Mm-hmm.

ST: And then as far as drying them goes, yeah, absolutely. If you've got the time, spread 'em out on a sheet pan with a rack so they're lifted and they're not just sitting flat on the pan, and keep 'em in your fridge literally overnight, two days maybe. So they're nice and dry on the exterior. You'll get a much crispier skin.

TM: Nice. And some very quick best practices for deep frying, should folks take that on at home. You're gonna want a much larger pan than you think you need. You're going to want to not overcrowd that pan when you're cooking things. I think it's a very good idea to have a thermometer so you can actually gauge the temperature of what's going on in there.

ST: Yeah. Get yourself a candy thermometer that can go up that high, or those fancy digital ones.

TM: Oil wise — what's the most you should be filling the pan with?

ST: I would say you never wanna go more than frankly half.

TM: Yeah. I think that's gonna be your safest point.

ST: But I think just to put one more point on that — you don't wanna go more than half and you have to understand that the oil expands. So when you put it in there cold, it'll be at the halfway mark. But when you heat it, it will elevate.

TM: Yes. Very good point. And then when you add things to that as well, it's gonna bubble up.

ST: Exactly.

TM: My other thing as well — look, if you do have an induction cooker versus a stove, that's also one extra safety step you can take. Worst case scenario, that oil boils over and you have a big accident. At least it's not on a live flame. But just be careful folks when it comes to deep frying. Although — spoiler alert — that's not gonna be the technique that we commit to today.

ST: I don't think we should. Because why would we talk about a technique that we can pretty much assume most people aren't gonna do?

TM: Mm-hmm.

ST: So let's — we're not gonna talk about it. We're talking about it in case, but —

TM: Yes. And also that's the standard you're gonna get if you're in a restaurant.

ST: Yep.

TM: So in order for us to not have those optimal deep frying conditions, we need to do a little bit more work when it comes to drying out that skin and drying out those wings. And I believe the most popular, or the highest profile technique you'll see out there was popularized by Kenji Lopez-Alt and involves one teaspoon of baking powder plus one teaspoon of salt for every pound of wings. Talk to us about where you go from there and what those two ingredients, what that process is doing.

ST: Yeah, I mean, Kenji's out there doing great work and he's a super brilliant guy. And I consider him like — we talk about mostly Jacques and Julia, but he's in my list of references that I go to for a lot of things. Baking powder has sodium bicarbonate, and it's cut with cream of tartar to make it stay powdery or whatever. But when it comes into contact with the juices from the chicken, it becomes alkaline. The alkaline environment breaks down collagen and proteins in the skin, which makes it more permeable and less rubbery. So that's gonna really help out. You had mentioned — and I looked it up — there is bubble formation. The chemical reaction produces carbon dioxide gas, which creates tiny bubbles on the skin surface. Those bubbles will increase the overall surface area. And again, surface area is what we're looking for when we're gonna fry something or make something crisp. But really what this leads to is faster dehydration and better browning.

TM: Alkaline conditions make amino acids more reactive.

ST: Yes.

TM: Therefore, the Maillard browning — that Maillard reaction that we keep banging on about — accelerates and you get a better result. This technique also includes, like I said, one teaspoon plus one teaspoon per pound. You're gonna toss those in, you're gonna season them properly in that. Then you are going to do the leaving in the rack — a wire rack on a tray in the fridge overnight. Overnight is ideal. Again, a couple of hours will help. 24 hours will be great. But that's also just a lot of raw chicken to have spread out in your fridge.

ST: Taking up a lot of room. I get it. But we're here to give you the best possible practices and you can pick and choose from them based on your needs and your abilities.

TM: Once we've got our chest freezer down here, we'll need a second fridge down here, I think as well.

ST: I mean, you know, you can rush the process along too. If you stick a fan in there — your fridge already has a fan, obviously — but if you've got a fan directly blowing, one of those little desktop ones or whatever that run on batteries, if you just put that directly on the chicken so it's blowing across, that'll help dry the skin and make it a little more tacky.

TM: So if you were using that method, where you would go from there — the technique dictates 450, high temperature oven, cooked on a rack. And that's gonna be your best analog for the deep frying result at home in any kitchen.

ST: Yeah.

TM: We are going to take it up a notch.

ST: Okay.

TM: We're gonna double cook our wings. And this is gonna be something quite personal for me, or I'll say this is the cooking technique for wings specifically — or for any food, but I'm doing it for wings specifically — that I have cooked, done, or employed more than anything else in the past 18 months.

ST: Okay.

TM: This is the one thing that I've cooked more than anything.

ST: Wow.

TM: I like to go — I like to start my wings — so I will do the baking powder and the salt. I like to start mine in my Weber grill. My standard F-150 of open fire cooking grill that I have out in the back. And then I like to finish in the air fryer. And this has become a kind of failsafe technique for me.

ST: Yeah. Are you putting some smoke on 'em or are you just grilling 'em?

TM: Definitely. I mean, you can do both. And I think you wanna be wary when it comes to smoking. But you can go either way.

ST: Yeah.

TM: So here's the standard scenario and here's why I've cooked that. I'm not just being like, "oh, this is just randomly I was messing up and this is the thing that I've cooked more of." Being fortunate enough to have an apartment that has space outdoors — first thing I did before I moved in, we got that F-150, that Weber grill.

ST: Same. I moved into my apartment — I got the apartment because I had a backyard. And the very first thing I purchased was a grill.

TM: This is a massive luxury for us here in New York City.

ST: Huge.

TM: Or anywhere, but definitely here in New York City.

ST: Huge.

TM: So whenever I have folks over, and especially — this would be any given weekend in the summer — I like to grill. I like to smoke things. I like to do longer cooking processes.

ST: Me too.

TM: You also want other things on the side. And that will take up the bulk of your space and your cooking, whatever. So when I'm bringing the grill up to temperature is when I'll get those wings that will serve later on as a little appetizer as we're waiting for the main event. I will pre-cook those on there.

ST: Mm-hmm.

TM: You're gonna be around — you're probably not gonna be anywhere near 375, because I'm prepping my grill for something that's gonna cook low and slow. But you can kind of cook this at any temperature. And my experience has been that it's almost impossible to overcook wings in this way.

ST: Yeah. I can see that. Wings and thighs are quite forgiving parts of the chicken. The breast is a little more tricky. But the fast-twitch muscles, the dark meat, is pretty forgiving.

TM: Mm-hmm.

ST: So you're getting your wings fully cooked out on the grill, then you can kind of let 'em rest somewhere. Put 'em back in the fridge even, if you want to. You can do this yesterday. So they're fully cooked?

TM: Yes.

ST: But then order pickup is into your air fryer at 400 for how long? And then they get crisp back up and — because you kind of cook them sort of slow on the grill, they're probably much more moist and juicy. You're getting crispy exterior, then it's onto sauce or what have you.

TM: And beautiful color as well, you're gonna get from that. Especially if you've got some smoke in there. But yeah, I will say exercise caution when it comes to —

ST: The smoke. It's shocking me to hear that you've cooked that the most in the past 18 months and you've not invited me over.

TM: You've literally been to —

ST: I remember you did make wings one time when you did — you did another large — you smoked something. I can't remember what it was. Wasn't ribs.

TM: It was.

ST: Was it ribs?

TM: Baby backs.

ST: Yeah. Okay.

TM: Well this is the other thing as well. Just while we're on it before we move on swiftly — any other type of low and slow cooking barbecue. Any of these sauces that you're gonna be making for that meat or to serve with that — go perfectly with wings and will coat wings really well.

ST: Yeah.

TM: Like the same barbecue sauce you put on your ribs — great with your wings.

ST: Right.

TM: So yeah. Any other technical considerations for us?

ST: No, I don't think so. There aren't that many moving parts to this dish. So as long as you're cooking your wings well, getting them crisp as you possibly can, then coating them with whatever sauce, I think you're doing everything right.

TM: I haven't heard any word of booze yet.

ST: Well, let's get into the sauce that we're gonna make for our wings.

TM: The sauce.

ST: The sauce is — I think we're making —

TM: The sauce is —

ST: — 'cause I'm gonna make one. You're gonna make a couple.

TM: We'll give a couple of recipes. One will sort of skirt over. Do you wanna hit us first?

ST: Sure. So we're gonna commit to my grill and then air fryer method. And also say that if folks don't have a grill or don't wanna go to that extreme, I would say go oven and then air fryer.

TM: Agreed.

ST: Right. So you can control that temperature.

TM: Yeah. Also, I think we're at a point now where pretty much air fryer is as ubiquitous as a microwave. Even though — though I personally don't have a microwave, I do have an air fryer. So I think everyone has an air fryer. But air fryers generally speaking aren't that big. So let's get your whole tray going in the oven so you can control that, and then let's pick 'em up to order, batch them in the air fryer. Beautiful. Because again, you don't wanna crowd it. You need that air circulation.

ST: What does shock me about the air fryer being so ubiquitous these days is why isn't it — why is it not just standard in America anyway to have a convection oven? That's all an air fryer is. It's a small convection oven.

***

TM: What are we putting on them? And goddammit, can we get some booze already?

ST: Yeah, for sure. I want to talk about a sauce that I made for wings using aquavit.

TM: Ooh. Let's do a little primer, a very quick primer. I think aquavit is a lesser known alcohol or lesser experienced one for some folks.

ST: Aquavit is typically sort of caraway slash dill flavored. I mean, it's effectively vodka with these like —

TM: So you mean gin?

ST: Yeah, it's basically a — yeah, sure. We can call it caraway dill gin if you want. It certainly plays in cocktails in that way all the time too. So I'm gonna get some — basically I'm gonna make the drink that I wanna have with these wings the sauce as well.

TM: Gotcha.

ST: So effectively what I'm making is — I looked it up today to find out it does have a name. I didn't even think — and then right before the show I was like, maybe this exists and it has a name. The Bloody Viking.

TM: The Bloody Viking.

ST: Because aquavit is from Scandinavian countries. The Bloody Viking, which is effectively a Bloody Mary but made with aquavit instead of standard vodka. You know, and/or Red Snapper instead of gin. So I'm gonna take horseradish, tomato, Worcestershire, aquavit, and I'm gonna make myself a sauce that's kind of bubbling on the stove in a pot. And then again, we're gonna finish that sauce with butter — copious amounts as we mentioned before. And I'm gonna toss my wings in that. And then I'm gonna make a drink with all those same ingredients too that's what I'm gonna drink on the side.

TM: Very cool.

ST: Because I need a drink. I do. It's five o'clock somewhere.

TM: It's funny, you know, I noticed that you didn't give us any quantities for your sauce there.

ST: Yeah. We never do that on the show because it seems tedious as a listener to try and jot down what we're saying. That's why as a subscriber to the show, you get recipe cards digitally sent to you with this beautiful artwork that we have made special for every episode by our artist friend. So yeah, we don't talk quantities.

TM: We don't need that. That was today's preparation. We are gonna head —

ST: Well, I do have one last thing to say about preparation. We talked about the wing itself and splitting the flat from the drum.

TM: I was waiting for this.

ST: Okay. Splitting the flat from the drumette. I for years went to this bar and had wings. And the very first time I went there, I got the wings and the wings came out. And I had this — I know I just said something about V8, so now it's on my mind — but I had this epiphany of slapping my own forehead. Former butcher. I'm looking at these wings and they've taken the flats, the flappers, and they've split them lengthwise before cooking. Which means then that you can almost cartoonishly — like you see the cat in a cartoon who puts the whole fish in his mouth and just pulls out the bones — you can do this with the flats. So easy to eat. Also, this is creating more surface area, so more opportunity for crispiness. It's creating more surface area for adhesion for sauce. And like, I cannot believe that — I never thought — you know, one of the — when I taught — I was a butchery instructor and when I taught butchery, I would hold up my knife and I would say, "This ordinance can make things the size and shape you want them to be." And I never, it never occurred to me to split a flapper in half.

TM: Mm-hmm.

ST: Incredible. So I would say that — do yourself a favor and split your flats.

TM: One follow up question on that.

ST: And that's my Porco Technique of the Week, by the way.

TM: A double technique. A double Porco.

ST: We got a double Porco.

TM: We're gonna take a final break of today's show and then when we get back we're gonna go for more pairings, cocktails, and some final thoughts.

***

TM: Alright, let's go. Let's fly through this. Cocktails. Tell us a little bit more about that Bloody Viking and the thing that you also teased earlier when you were speaking about it.

ST: So my first gut instinct is — what pairs well with this dish? It's beer. It seems like it's beer. But because I made this sauce that uses aquavit and all of the components that would be found in a Bloody Mary slash Bloody Viking, I think what I really want is this drink, the Bloody Viking, and a beer. But not a big beer — a small beer. All across the Midwest here in the United States, when you order a Bloody Mary, it automatically comes with a short pour of crispy, very cold pilsner on the side. And it's known as a "snit," which comes from the German word S-C-H-N-I-T-T, "Schnitt," which means cut. So you get this little snit of beer to help cut that Bloody Mary, which I think has always been one of my problems with the Bloody Mary. I have to be very in the mood to have one. Because of their thickness. And I think that having that little beer on the side changes the game. So I want to have my Bloody Viking with a snit of frosty cold, very crisp pilsner style beer on the side.

TM: Very cool. Also, if you're partaking during game night, big game night, you want something that's gonna last. That's not too high in alcohol. Like we've done very spiritous cocktails on this show before. I think something more sessionable is good here, especially if that was your plan.

ST: And I think a Bloody Mary is a sessionable drink, not because it necessarily has less ABV than a drink of similar size, but because of its texture, you simply take it in slower. And it's also like a bit of food.

TM: It also fills you up.

ST: Yeah. It's soup. You know, when I worked at a place in Atlanta a zillion years ago, the blue laws are still on the books there. You can't serve alcohol before noon on Sundays. And of course, we're open for brunch, so people are already in there. We opened at, I think, 11. So we had an hour where we couldn't technically serve. But we would make chilled tomato vodka soup and serve it in a bowl with a straw. Feel me?

TM: Well, you know, you used to be a chef.

ST: Yeah, I did. Now I just make chilled soup.

TM: Yeah.

ST: So the first hour of service, you'd look out at the tables and they'd all have this same huge bowl on them with a straw sticking out of it.

TM: Fantastic. Other pairings? I had a cocktail, but I don't think I'm ready to share it yet. I've teased it on this before on Sauced — my spicy pineapple margarita. Acid adjusting my pineapple juice to lime. I'm gonna add a few other things in here. And I just think that, you know, the marg is a spiritual relative of wings. It's just beloved. But perhaps overindexes in the U.S. compared to other countries as well.

ST: For sure.

TM: This is something that folks don't always realize. So one day I will share that recipe. But instead I'm just gonna say — you know what, with wings, I'm not even gonna look to wine, 'cause I think Champagne is more for the fried chicken. I don't think it's buffalo wings or vinegary wing sauce. I'm just gonna go with beer. Lager, pilsner. Keep it light. Interesting you brought up aquavit, 'cause that is my preferred beer and a shot would be a crisp pilsner lager and an aquavit shot.

ST: Mm-hmm.

TM: People have made fun of me for that before, but it's what they serve there up at Long Island Bar. I think it's great.

ST: Yep. I think with wings it's gotta be — 'cause it needs to be somewhat refreshing. It needs to be somewhat palate cleansing. It needs to be something that you don't mind getting messy. Every time you grab your bottle or can, or even glass, your hands are gonna be coated with a combination of butter, hot sauce, and blue cheese. I think wings are a thing where you roll up your sleeves and you get into 'em and then you go and basically shower off afterwards. You don't try and be dainty about this process during the event. So crispy beer. And that's — for mine, with my preparation, that's why I chose to have this sort of Bloody Mary and a snit on the side. Because I want to have that — again, I think oftentimes with pairing, there's really only two real avenues, I think. One is to go directly away from the thing — have a pairing that goes against whatever it is you're pairing it with. Or one is to go directly at it.

TM: Mm-hmm.

ST: And if I'm making this sauce using all these exact same ingredients from what's in my drink, and I've got this kind of double-down effect of sort of flavor piling as I eat and have a bite and then have a drink, have a bite and then have a drink — I think it's like the mimicking, but two very different flavors. All the same ingredients, but one's been cooked and has butter, one's chilled and got booze in it still that hasn't been cooked off. But I love that.

TM: Mm-hmm.

ST: And then again, that snit to keep cutting.

TM: Just keep it fresh, keep everything moving.

ST: My mouth is watering.

TM: Alright, well that's our Southern Bingo card phrase that we need. Actually wait, there's been no striations today.

ST: Yeah.

TM: Can you find a striation somewhere for us so we can wrap this up?

ST: I mean, the celery, I think, has — when you're peeling it —

TM: I think that's a great point for us to just say — Sother, any final thoughts for us today? What I — you know, normally we like to ask, what is someone missing out on if they never make this? Now, maybe you have an answer to that, or maybe you just have some final thoughts on wings.

ST: I mean, they're just a fun, joyful thing to cook. They give plenty of room for error, both in the cooking and in the preparation. And again, the ultimate malleability of how you're gonna sauce them. I just feel like if you throw a party and you make wings, you're gonna be the hero. If you throw a party and you order wings, people are gonna think well of you. But if you make 'em, you're gonna be the hero no matter what. It's kinda like pizza. Even bad pizza's pretty good. You're not gonna make a mistake that's gonna be egregious. So they're just joyful and fun.

TM: Like a Negroni.

ST: Like a Negroni. Pretty bulletproof.

TM: Hard to mess up.

ST: Pretty bulletproof. Also, I would say one last thing before you jump in — they are a party. You make some wings. Whatever was happening is now a party.

TM: Yes. Fair commentary. I agree with that. It's the thing that brings people together, which is becoming a recurring theme for us. I found myself like — I said it's the thing that I've cooked the most in the past 18 months to two years since we've moved into this apartment. So clearly I enjoy doing that. But I think what I really enjoyed most about the prep for this episode and thinking about this dish is on the one hand, geeking out. Considering that science, considering what we are actually doing when we're deep frying, it gives us a better understanding of — here's our outcome, here's the process. Like, this is why we do things. And then actually you were saying something earlier today that there was a bit of another light bulb moment for me here.

ST: What's that?

TM: I had an epiphany earlier today. You look at these things — the tangy, vinegary, slightly spicy sauce. The difference in textures. When you describe that marriage of everything, I think it makes you understand pairing and building flavor combinations together. And things that work — like that celery that might be so bland and terrible in any other scenario or most other scenarios really shines here. You need the fat of the butter and the creaminess of the cheese to temper the vinegar. You know what I mean?

ST: A hundred percent.

TM: This is a fantastic illustration of different flavors, balancing things together, getting your hands dirty. And hey, let's hope we fly through the 1.5 billion this year.

ST: Let's go.