Tim McKirdy: Sother.

Sother Teague: Hey buddy.

TM: Another saffron-heavy episode for us here today.

ST: Quick to have it jump back in the mix, but here we go. Here we are.

TM: Here we are. We're about to get into one of the most — actually I think it's the most expensive spice known to mankind. But before we do, exciting announcement here on Sauced for us today.

ST: Exciting announcement. What do you got?

TM: So, you know our chef, the Sauced chef?

ST: Our little logo.

TM: Yes. Finally he has a name.

ST: Oh, no. I mean, oh yes. Alright. How did we come to his name?

TM: So, during our Kickstarter campaign that we were running before we launched the show, one of the options for folks to back us — but for one backer — was the privilege of naming the Sauced chef. It was a high demand item. Someone snapped it up real fast and got that one. And we've been figuring out sort of behind the scenes what we're gonna call the Sauced chef. And wow, I'm telling you, this could not be a more fitting name and story for the Sauced chef.

ST: Is it Sother? Do we name him Sother?

TM: It's close. I'll tell you that. I'll tell you that for free. So huge thanks have to go out to Rachel Depo, friend of the show, personal friend of ours. Friend of the backyard barbecues here over at the Sauced HQ. And so the story of our chef — our chef's name is — big reveal, drum roll. Both doing that. Trying not to touch the table 'cause it's gonna come real loud. There you go. So the name is Maurice.

ST: Maurice. Maurice is a great name in general 'cause it sounds good. And I think of two things immediately when you say the name Maurice. I think of the Steve Miller Band. Some people call me Maurice. And then I think immediately in the kitchen — we, I don't know why, why do we refer to the rubber spatula, specifically the heatproof one that's kind of curved, shovel-shaped, as a Maurice? Do you know why we call it that?

TM: I don't. I think it must be the French name. I think it's a French thing. I don't know.

ST: Well, now it makes me wanna go look that up because I've always wondered why we call that one Maurice, but we just do. Pass me Maurice, you know, like, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

TM: And our chef character sort of got that look about him, but this story goes even further.

ST: Okay. Let's hear it.

TM: So, Rachel's from Louisiana.

ST: Oh. I lived in Louisiana.

TM: Yes. And which I thought you would enjoy. So growing up, I think when she was around eight years old, her folks came back with this six-foot-tall life-size wooden cutout of — well, actually it's more of a waiter, front of house, than a chef. But he resembles our chef in many ways. He's got this tray with drinks on there. They look like — I'm gonna guess they're French 75s. There's a Louisiana connection here. But her folks picked up Maurice in an antique store on Magazine Street, I believe, in New Orleans.

ST: Magazine Street, New Orleans. That's Antiques Row. That's where all the antiques are. Not all, but like, that's where you go when you go antique shopping in New Orleans.

TM: So the funny thing about this is they pick up this wooden cutout, life-size, of this waiter who's kind of haunting looking, but also brilliant. We're gonna have to put a photo up on the YouTube video as we post this so people can see.

ST: I thought you meant we were gonna get this.

TM: No. Maurice is a beloved part of the Depo family. The funny thing was they came back with this after hours. Didn't tell any of the family that they had bought this guy. And apparently he continues to this day to just sort of shock people. 'Cause you forget he's in a room and suddenly Maurice is there and you're scared out your skin.

ST: Did they just move him from room to room, you know, occasionally? So you walk into a room and you're not expecting him and there he is.

TM: It would be wonderful to play a prank like that on people, just moving Maurice around. But Maurice is now residing in Pensacola, Florida.

ST: Oh, okay. I also used to live in Florida.

TM: So isn't that where you worked at the Waffle House?

ST: Yes, it is. Is Maurice serving at the Waffle House?

TM: Close by. I know. Rachel and her partner Clay — also big friend of the show, backer. Thanks to those two both, huge thanks to them and shout out to them both.

ST: Indeed. I met them in the backyard here.

TM: You certainly did.

ST: I think over some ribs.

TM: And I think they went out of their way to try and find the origin of where you stopped drinking coffee.

ST: Well, the origin is the Waffle House. In Panama City Beach, Florida. Not far from Pensacola.

TM: There you go.

ST: Easy peasy.

TM: So Maurice is down there, but yeah, once again, folks, just a huge thanks to Rachel for coming up with that name, for backing the show. It's awesome. We'll get something up on the website as well so that folks can see our Maurice versus the inspiration Maurice.

ST: How are we gonna refer to Maurice moving forward? Is he Maurice? Is he Chef Maurice?

TM: Good call. Chef Maurice. Well, you know, if it was a former — well, he continues to be — Scottish, but a former colleague of mine who's a Scottish chef, he always used to say, where's your Maurice, chef? So if we wanna do it in a Scottish way, we'll call him Chef Maurice. But we'll call him Chef Maurice for now, just to create that distinction. So yeah, we are off to the races. We are cooking. That's a big moment for us here at Sauced. But now, back to Risotto alla Milanese. Tell me about it, man.

ST: Risotto alla Milanese — it's a creamy, iconic Northern Italian rice dish, specifically from Milan. And it is known mostly for its vibrant golden color, which doesn't matter to me as we all know, and distinct flavor, which are derived from, as we already mentioned, saffron. And there's some cute things about where this got its origin and some of its lore. But that's the elevator pitch. That's the one-liner.

TM: I put down here — I think Risotto alla Milanese is the simplest great dish in Italian cooking and also in some respects that we'll get into today different to the way you're taught to make risotto. The order of things or the ingredients. Like a classic risotto, I think of building flavor. And I think this dish is almost like stripping away components to its most basic, but also most brilliant form. Highlighting some of those wonderful ingredients like the aforementioned and the sort of character-giving saffron. What do you eat this with? What do you like to eat this with?

ST: Well, it also traditionally, in its most original form, involves bone marrow, and that's what I like to eat it with. I like to use some bone marrow fat in the making, but then serve it with roasted bone marrow on the side with maybe a little gremolata to brighten it up. And this is, for me for sure, a first course dish.

TM: Oh, interesting. Okay.

ST: But I think probably the most common way you see it served is as a main course accompanied with ossobuco. Which does have a little bit of bone marrow in it.

TM: Yes. And that has a name — that combo. I forget what it's called. We might stumble across it somewhere today in the notes. But it does have a specific name. I mean, look, we can just get it out the way now. Ultimate prince's dish. Right? Especially if you're bringing that ossobuco into it.

ST: Yeah, I think so. Well, strangely enough, we've turned ossobuco into an expensive dish because there's only so much of the shank that you can get a hold of, so that it becomes a rarity and then the price goes up. But this is again — I think we investigate a lot of these on the show — this is a cut of meat that's pretty low on the tier. It's the processing that makes this meat so valuable. Wow, that felt like a mouthful, the way I said it. Basically, it's a cheap cut of meat and we're gonna make it real nice.

TM: And it's that cheap cut of meat that has been elevated into an expensive cut, like you said, due to supply and demand. But also that saffron-rich risotto — I mean, it's a prince's dish. There's no — and we will get into some of the preparations later on as well that take this to, well, an unnecessary level I think you believe. Personal experiences with risotto alla Milanese, or just risotto in general at restaurants?

ST: I mean, I've cooked pounds and pounds and pounds of risotto. I worked in an Italian place when I lived in North Carolina. It's a staple of the menu, especially in finer Italian restaurants or even not-fine Italian restaurants. It is gonna be in first courses, it's gonna be in main courses, it's gonna be in appetizers like arancini — there's kind of a, it's a staple at family meal because we're making so much of it that we have to utilize it even in the back of the house. Risotto is ubiquitous at nice Italian restaurants as rice is at any Chinese restaurant — like, you gotta have it. So I've cooked truckloads of risotto.

TM: Truckloads. And I would imagine you probably cooked your risotto base first. I mean, this is a restaurant-specific step that you're not gonna do at home, much like we mentioned with our dry mashed potato. Do you wanna tell us about that?

ST: Yeah, I mean, however, I would argue a little bit. I'm not always the voice of arguments here on the show — or am I? But I would argue a little bit and say, with the popularity now of home cooking — and thank you for listening, you're surely a home cook and that's why you're listening to us — with the popularity of home cooking combined with the popularity of meal prepping, what I'm about to describe could be quite handy for the home cook. Right. And good call. What you're asking me is how do we cook that much risotto and get it out the door? 'Cause start to finish, even with all your mise en place next to you, you're looking at a 20-minute process to make risotto to order. And if you've got a business of any size, numerous seats that can order at different times, you don't have enough burners to accommodate making risotto to order. So what you do is, just like you described once before, the dry mash — you get your risotto to a certain stage, you stop the cooking process, and then you can pick it up in about four to six minutes. So that process is — we'll talk about the process of making risotto. It's just that where you stop it.

TM: So you're doing like a pre-cooking, you're maybe cooking at 30% of the way or something like that.

ST: I would say more like 70% of the way. And you're picking up that remaining 30%, to order. But the idea is you get it most of the way there, then you spread it thin on sheets and get it into a fridge or a blast chiller if you have one. Probably not at home, but at least into your fridge, so it cools as quickly as possible. And then you can sort of scoop that up into containers or zip-top bags or what have you. And then to order, it's just the same. You're doing the same process. You're just stopping it in the middle. Closer to the end, but you know what I'm saying?

TM: Mm-hmm. Fantastic. We're gonna take a little quick break now, then we're gonna get into the origin and history and culinary luminaries.

TM: We are back in the studio. Time to get into some history. Sother, I'm not gonna trace the whole history of saffron here for us, but I will say it arrived in medieval Italy due to the sort of trade routes that would've existed at the time, and then started being cultivated in Abruzzo, Sardinia, and Lombardy. So I didn't realize actually that this was something that was being cultivated in Italy. I always assumed more of a sort of Persian climate.

ST: Yeah, me too.

TM: But apparently, you know, medieval times, where I have to assume it was cooler as well. I'm not too au fait with the growing of saffron and what that process involves, but I wanna point out that from early on, saffron was prized not just for its flavor. More so for its color. Because gold and yellow would've been associated with opulence, with —

ST: Royalty.

TM: Royalty, nobility, richness. To the point where saffron fraud was punishable by death in medieval —

ST: Saff fraud. Oh man. That's amazing.

TM: Yes. So, especially, people would be very suspicious of powder. Because you could have mixed it with other stuff, adulterated your saffron.

ST: Or probably some turmeric.

TM: To the front, exactly.

ST: But frankly, if you wanted to save money, you could just shave gold into it.

TM: If you wanted to save money. It's true, it's less expensive. But in the 15th century, something known as the Nuremberg Saffron Code mandated execution by burning or burial alive for adulterating saffron.

ST: Wow. They're like, not only are we gonna kill you, we're gonna kill you gruesomely. If you adulterate your saffron — like, oh, you accidentally got some daisies in there? No, you're out.

TM: And that is our Maurice Mutilation Law of the day.

ST: Holy cow.

TM: No, that's not a very nice one for Maurice to kick off with.

ST: Wow. Coming in strong, Chef Maurice.

TM: But yeah, so obviously very revered. And then I wanna point out the apocryphal legend of the origin of this dish specifically.

ST: I think I know this one. Oftentimes I come into the show and you have the history and I don't know, but I think I know this one. It sounds like lore to me.

TM: Tell me what you got and I'll fill in the gaps if we are thinking about the same story.

ST: I have it — it was 16th-century construction of the Duomo di Milano, right?

TM: Mm-hmm.

ST: A glass maker there was folding saffron into the blown glass for the windows in the cathedral to give them color. And then he added it to rice, making it a dish fit for a cathedral. That's what I know of Risotto alla Milanese.

TM: So I have a similar-ish story. So yes, the Duomo is being made. There's a Belgian glass master called Valerio di Fiandra. He was overseeing the stained glass production for the Duomo. He had, as is often the case in art and architecture in these times, a bunch of apprentices, and one of them was known for adding saffron to literally everything. So it earned him the nickname Zafferano. And at one point, Valerio teased Zafferano and said, you put saffron in everything — you'll put it in your risotto next. Now, at Valerio's daughter's wedding —

ST: I'll show you.

TM: Yeah. Zafferano's friends did exactly that. They poured saffron into the wedding rice as a prank. And when it was served, everyone was baffled. They hadn't seen anything this color before. They didn't know what to make of it. And then one by one, they all tasted it and they were like, wow, actually this is pretty good.

ST: This is amazing.

TM: Now, worth noting, I said apocryphal — probably. And you said lore. This was, I think, dates back to, like you said, 16th century — the specific year I have here is 1574. But it does not — until 1809 — that we see the first written recipe for this dish specifically.

ST: So 200-plus years later.

TM: 200-plus years later. So, is it possible that people have been making this dish for 200 years and no one's written it down? Or is it more like people were using saffron with rice, but it wasn't codified as a dish? It's maybe one of those gray areas that we often find ourselves in.

ST: I think I would land it in the gray area because if there was such a penalty for adulterating saffron, that means it was definitely a coveted and beloved item and you had to use it for something. So what were you using it for? I think this was probably in more opulent homes that it was being used to flavor foods with, but I imagine that it was also used to color articles of clothing, tapestries, et cetera.

TM: Yeah. And I think that's a good point as well. Now to point out the distinction when it comes to what we think of as Italy — and I'm certain this was pre-unification of the country, right? So this is not the country that we know now. A big divide when it comes to north and south, and we always find that we keep getting into that here. But the north being — colder climate, relatively speaking, richer dishes, but also the arts, the bourgeois. This stunning cathedral whose construction took hundreds of years as well.

ST: You don't start building a church expecting to go to that church. I hope you're gonna be long dead before it's finished.

TM: Well, I hope that's the case for that one in Barcelona — what's it called?

ST: Oh my gosh.

TM: Still making it.

ST: Still working. Yeah.

TM: But yeah, so Giuseppe Verdi, the greatest Italian opera composer, has a link to this dish as well. Devoted home cook who considered his Risotto alla Milanese a point of personal pride. He wasn't born in Milan, but he spent most of his career there. Again, Milan being a hub for the arts and wealth and whatnot. He spent so much time in Milan, he adopted the city's signature dish as his own. A few final things to point out just with that history — that 1809 first printed recipe for this dish was called "yellow rice in a pan," or the Italian equivalent of that. Included bone marrow and onion, as you mentioned early. Plus a type of Italian sausage, which I don't think is common these days. And I think maybe we've more stripped the dish back as time has gone on. And then I think 1829, there's a cookbook where the dish was sort of formally named or codified — Risotto alla Milanese giallo, yellow Milanese risotto.

ST: Known as Milan in a bowl. It embodies the city's elegance and history, often considered a celebratory dish. I have here in my notes — often called risotto giallo, yellow. It's a staple of the cuisine that showcases the balance between simple preparation and luxurious flavor. And I think that's the — if I had to codify, in one blanket swoop here and get in trouble on the internet — Italian cooking is that. It is: let's take something simple and make it elegant and luxurious. Sometimes using dollars to make that happen, and sometimes simply using the methodology of preparation.

TM: I feel this is a generalization as well, and I'm worried about getting into this here, which is why I give it a little pause, but I do feel like when we talk about classical French cooking, I think we are talking about structures and processes for which different ingredients are adapted to. And then the outcomes are these different dishes. What's the difference between a Beef Bourguignon and a Coq au Vin? The process is the same. You build it very much the same. You end up with a different dish. I feel like Italian cooking seems more ingredient-driven rather than process-driven. So you start with the ingredients and you run with it, rather than being like, these are our mother sauces and these are the techniques that we apply across the board.

ST: Right. And I think also, not to belabor the point here, the Italians are quite straightforward and simple in their drinks as well. The Negroni is a universally beloved simple cocktail that, you know, certainly complex in its flavors, but the build is simple. The methodology is simple. And this, I think, is common in the way that they approach both food and drink. Now, blanket statement, and come at us in the comments and that's fine. I'm entitled to my opinion, but also I'm willing to be swayed. But having worked in Italian places, having operated now for 15 years a bar that specializes in mostly Italian products, and having traveled to Italy enough times — it's all about elevating. It's more about the — I don't wanna turn into the hippie granola guy here — but it's more about the love, energy, and effort that you put into the product than it is about the product itself.

TM: I think that's a really good way to interpret it. And also, love the little Negroni shout-out there. Again, we're in Milan — a Milanese cocktail.

ST: It is a Milanese cocktail.

TM: And I'm assuming you've been to the Galleria? And I think last time I was there I also did a tour of the Duomo. I think they're still building some of it.

ST: They're never stopping. You're never gonna stop the church builders.

TM: So those are our origins. Curious to hear what you came across in the realm of culinary luminaries for this dish.

ST: I think it's a sad state of affairs on my own selection of the people who I considered luminaries in my life — that many of them didn't have a whole lot to say. The one thing that I really took away, that a number of other people said, of James Beard — I can never find him directly saying it — was he loves the dish very much. But he's the one who started grating his onions so that they'd quote, unquote melt into the dish. And then we have some other folks that are sort of more modern day that we're gonna talk about what they do too. And you found some information about the technique as well?

TM: Yes.

ST: That we're gonna talk about. So yeah, I didn't come away with a lot of culinary luminaries on this one. There's plenty of information both on the internet and in books about risotto, specifically about Risotto alla Milanese as well. But I didn't get a consensus from Jacques or Julia. I think again, maybe it's due to the fact that the dish involves so few ingredients and is so meticulously, ritualistically prepared that there isn't a lot of room for people to have opinions. So I think James Beard's grating of the onions was the real only thing that I saw that was unique.

TM: One of the things I really like about that James Beard anecdote or methodology is just people being obsessed with this notion of dissolving onions or garlic in oil. Right? You know what I mean? Like the classic Goodfellas scene. I know we brought it up before, but the razor blade, just shaving the garlic with a razor blade. That's a myth, right? You cannot dissolve onions no matter how you prepare them, right?

ST: No, it's not going away. But they get extra tender when they're cut or sliced or manipulated into smaller bits.

TM: Well, and again, we've mentioned this before — onions are roughly 89% water. If you grate them, you're gonna expose that water faster. You're gonna be able to evaporate it from the remaining solids faster. So it's gonna go to a purée, but it's a bit of a myth or a bit of a misnomer. I got two names to add to the mix here today. So the first one, not a chef I'm familiar with, but very renowned Italian chef — Gualtiero Marchesi. Considered the father of modern Italian haute cuisine. The first Italian chef to earn three Michelin stars. And his Risotto alla Milanese is arguably the most famous single plate in modern Italian restaurant history. I'm sure our guy with the pasta, Massimo Bottura, might give him a run for his money these days. But in 1981, Marchesi placed an edible gold leaf on top of his saffron risotto. A gesture that was equal parts homage and provocation. Gold on gold — a dish that symbolizes wealth, crowned with actual gold. What's your thoughts on adding gold leaf to food?

ST: I think you already know the answer to that. I can't stand it. I wanna point out two things. Well, first of all, let's get the gold thing outta the way. I can't stand it. For me, it is one step too far in the world of opulence. You may as well shred up a hundred-dollar bill and have me eat that. I don't want to eat money. Thanks anyway. So I'd say no. We can have gold-colored things like saffron, which is more expensive than gold. We're already eating something ludicrously expensive. We don't need to literally eat money. That's just my stance. I know people love it. I know it's quite popular in Indian cuisine, and I'm sure that it'll come up many times in the future of this show. But I see it in Japanese places now, where they'll float pieces of gold leaf on top of uni or what have you. It always bothers me. It never sits well with me. However, I'd like to go back — say my guy's name again.

TM: Marchesi.

ST: Marchesi. Chef Marchesi. The most — you said in your recap there, the most iconic — is that the word you used? About the bowl of rice?

TM: Arguably the most famous single plate in modern Italian restaurant history.

ST: How cool is it that, based on everything we just said about simplicity, that the most well-known dish is a dish of rice and this guy's legacy is carrying that on. And then we recently spoke of Paul Bocuse, who was chef of the century.

TM: Man.

ST: I keep telling you —

TM: There wasn't a lot of competition.

ST: Again, I was mixologist of the year — of the century, man, that's going for it. And he knew in his bones that his legacy would be that plate of potatoes. So what we find over and over again, I think, is the way to be the most known and exalted is to take the most simple and make it the most pleasurable.

TM: Yes. A hundred percent. And I agree with you on the gold leaf. I've never understood it as an ingredient.

ST: Well, I would even ask — in a professional sense, have you ever worked at a kitchen that had it?

TM: No.

ST: Have you ever ordered it?

TM: No.

ST: Neither have I. It seems so patently — it doesn't bring flavor.

TM: No, it's just unnecessary opulence.

ST: Serve me on a beautiful plate that is made of gold, but take the plate and wash it and use it again. You know what I mean? I don't want to eat gold.

TM: But, okay. I agree. So I wonder —

ST: Swallow these pennies.

TM: I want to bring Marchesi back into your good books here.

ST: Yeah, okay. He's good now. Listen, beyond his legacy, he took something so simple and made it so iconic.

TM: Marchesi is also famous for having either invented or certainly popularizing a very specific process for this dish. He removed the sautéed onion entirely. So we all begin our risotto with onion or shallots. Garlic — we'll get into these, you know, these are contested for this dish. But rather than having the onion there as the solid that won't dissolve, he created what's known as an acid butter. By cooking the onion — I believe sweating down in some butter first, and then cooking it in white wine and white wine vinegar, straining out the onion, reducing down, and then mixing with butter to create this acid butter, which would be the base of the dish. I had never seen that technique before. But then a chef that I knew when I was working in London, and whose cookbook I have — I took a look at that the other day. His method was slightly different but did a very similar thing for risotto. This acid butter, which I'd just never come across before this. I've never come across it in real life. As a preparation, I've seen it done.

ST: We talk often about the guys from Fallow in London, and they do this as well. So effectively what you described is they're making an onion stock of wine and vinegar that then they strain and reduce to a syrup, that then they fold into butter like a compound butter. And then these guys use it to finish the risotto, you're saying? Chef Marchesi started with the butter?

TM: So I don't know whether he started the dish with this, but he certainly removed the onion from the beginning of the process and then specifically used it in this other process. And we're gonna use this word a lot today — or we're gonna try — mantecatura. Which is the finishing of the risotto, which is a semi-violent beating in of cold butter and cheese off the heat. That's gonna be another identity of this dish and a technique.

ST: Yeah, for sure. And I've never tried it and I'm excited to try it. I'm definitely gonna incorporate it into our version, I think, when we make it.

TM: So, Marchesi — gotta give the guy a shout-out. And then yeah, I did have one or two other London chefs or London-based Italian chefs, but I think that is the most notable name for us to look over today.

ST: And when did he come up with this technique? Do you have an idea of how long ago?

TM: 1980s.

ST: Yeah, okay. Right when haute cuisine was really breaking through, I think.

TM: And right ahead of that moment where you did have a big diaspora of Italian chefs — talented Italian chefs as well — moving to London, as well as other places. And bartenders, really defining the culinary scene there. That concludes our origin story and luminary section. We're gonna take a quick break now. Then we're gonna get into some non-negotiables.

TM: Alright. We're back. Non-negotiables. Hit me with some obvious ones.

ST: I think it's a pretty short list, which I enjoy. I enjoy when we get dishes that the list of non-negotiables is pretty short, because it just means that the creativity has to come from the boundaries. So, first, obviously we need some rice. And there's two choices here. One of them is correct and the other one is less correct.

TM: Wow. There's a lot of rice out there, but you've taken us halfway on the journey already. Please continue.

ST: Your choices really are Carnaroli or Arborio. And I think that, after doing some digging, I've discovered that the rice that we used when I worked at that place where we did it by the truckload was Carnaroli. And I think that is the right answer. Doing some digging though — I go to the stores that I shop at and I don't find it anywhere. I find Arborio everywhere. And you and I did a little digging and it shows that it really just comes down to Arborio having better marketing, because the Carnaroli is the superior choice for this preparation. And I feel like you can tell me why?

TM: So Arborio for sure is the most common rice that's used for risotto. And I believe is cheaper and easier to cultivate there. But the reason — so we're talking starch, right? With risotto, and especially a risotto like this, but great risotto — the only liquid that's going in is stock. We're not getting a sauce from cream. Granted, we are gonna add butter and a lovely cheese at the end, but our sauce comes from starch.

ST: And by the way, just real quickly — love this dish, of course. And it gets finished with cheese and butter. But if you're just at home making some risotto, it can just be risotto — the rice and stock. You can just stop there. That's the sort of blank canvas of the thing.

TM: And the whole process of risotto — and we're gonna get into this in the science a little bit later — but what we're trying to do here is develop the starch and manipulate the starch in the way that we want to. There are two different molecules of starch that we're focusing on specifically here. One's called amylose and one's called amylopectin. Carnaroli has more amylose, which keeps the grain intact — sort of like the skeleton or the structure of it. While Arborio has more amylopectin. Amylopectin is the starch that sort of seeps out and creates your sauce. So you're gonna get a saucier risotto if you're using Arborio. You're gonna get more structure and it's gonna be easier to cook it to al dente with Carnaroli, because the Arborio, once you get it close — because it has more amylopectin — it's gonna be starchier and easier to overcook. Do you think that's why Carnaroli is the king of risotto rices?

ST: Yeah. I think that Arborio rice, as you just said, is easier to overcook, which will certainly result in a more saucy final product. And I think that's in some ways desirable. What for me is not desirable is the fact that then there's not enough distinction between the grains. Because when I'm eating orzo or pastina or rice or risotto or any of the myriad of things — when I'm hungry and I want to eat a thousand of something, this is what I choose. That's a Mitch Hedberg line. Anytime you want to eat a thousand of something, rice is a good choice. But I'm looking for that mouthfeel. It's quite important to the dish, to me, to be able to discern grain from grain on my tongue, on my palate. So again, that's why I'm reaching for the Carnaroli. For me, Carnaroli is the non-negotiable — that does have some wiggle room because if it's so non-negotiable that you can't find it at your grocery store, then it's a problem. So pick up Arborio as a second choice, but it is a close second.

TM: Short-grain rice.

ST: You need a short-grain Italian rice.

TM: That's non-negotiable number one. Non-negotiable number two —

ST: For this dish.

TM: I'm gonna hit you. Saffron.

ST: I mean, it's gotta be there.

TM: And I'm gonna say this for the rest of my life now, after thinking about that law.

ST: I hope what you're gonna say for the rest of your life is make sure you don't have saffron at home before you buy saffron.

TM: Who can ever have too much saffron?

ST: Oh, not you, apparently.

TM: I've got a little bit of a stock over here. I'm threads exclusive from now on. No more powder for me. If I want powder, I'll powder it myself. I don't want people adulterating my saffron.

ST: Based on that law. And you don't want to be murdered for it. And I don't want that either.

TM: But I do think about this. When I was in that kitchen in Argentina and the state of the Argentine economy at the time, and the fact that we were able to afford and put saffron in dishes — and what was the little vial we always bought was powder. And it was probably adulterated.

ST: Yeah. That someone was getting one over on you.

TM: That's a shame. And also, one of the chefs that I was gonna mention — Giorgio Locatelli — is one of those great Italian chefs who moved to London, and is famously a Michelin-starred chef in London now. That was a non-negotiable for Locatelli. He says he wants to be able to — he wants the color of saffron, but he wants to see the threads in there, in the dish. And I like that.

ST: Yeah, I do too. It'll color the whole thing. And then you'll have these little intensely bright-colored threads in there that really signify that you've got the thing right. It's a protection for the consumer. I don't fight against the powdered saffron though, because all that is, is the shake, right? They're saving the threads to be the premier item, and then they still have this product. They're gonna use it. So let's grind it up and use it. I don't think adulteration is as prevalent as it may have been back in the day.

TM: I don't know, man. You're talking about a spice that's pound for pound more expensive than gold.

ST: Yeah. So you're right. There's good opportunity here for manipulation.

TM: For being a ne'er-do-well.

ST: But in the food world, I put it right in the same category as — there was a time when people thought they're punching discs out of skate wing and calling it scallops. The labor and the energy and the effort here is gonna outweigh just buying the damn scallops.

TM: Yeah, but that's different to mixing turmeric into saffron powder there.

ST: Right. But we'll say saffron. Gotta be saffron. Let's go. Listen, if you're making this dish, you're probably not using a lot of saffron in your house. Go ahead and buy the threads. So I'll totally agree with you. I'm just saying I see the other side too.

TM: Why don't you hit me now with your next non-negotiable here.

ST: I'm gonna jump the list a little here and say butter. Must have butter. And I think that catches some people off guard, but the northern part of Italy is known for more dairy products, butter and cream. Obviously cheese is all over the country, but the further south you go, the more it's oil. This dish will involve both. But I think butter is important. I could get away with making this dish without any oil, but I can't get away without butter.

TM: My next non-negotiable — bone marrow. I think that, to your point, it might be like that Carnaroli where you don't find it everywhere. You need to make a dedicated trip to a specialty store.

ST: I mean, I don't shop there personally. There's — I have so many other options here in New York. But I feel pretty confident if you live near an Eataly, they're gonna have Carnaroli.

TM: Yes, they will for sure. But that bone marrow, I just think that given that so many different aspects of this dish have been stripped away — we said some people are literally taking out the onion from the equation, or in the way that we would expect it. People are trying to dissolve onion. A lot of recipes I saw, people aren't even using garlic. So if you're stripping fundamentals away, but one of the things that's consistent throughout is bone marrow. And we can discuss when you add that bone marrow or how you use it. I just think it's gotta be in there. It's one of the defining ingredients.

ST: Yeah, I'm absolutely on board. And I already mentioned, that's what I like to serve it with in the end as well. Some hard-roasted or even grilled bone marrow with some gremolata.

TM: Nice. Next one for you.

ST: Next one for me — we need some white wine.

TM: Yeah, has to be. Not too concerned about what wine it is. Acidic, crisp, light would be good. White wine. Next for me — has to have stock.

ST: Yeah. Specifically beef. Or veal, which is the same animal but younger in age. But yeah, it needs to be fairly light. I don't want a hard-roasted dark stock here. We're not looking for the thing that's gonna become demi-glace. We're looking for just a nice stock. In fact, you could get away, I think, even with just a broth. Just bones and water simmered gently to extract flavor. Because if we go too dark on our stock — whether we use chicken, roasted chicken stock, whatever — then we're gonna take away some of the opportunity for the saffron to shine through as both a flavor and a coloring agent, which I know is lower on my totem pole than most, but that is an essential part of this dish.

TM: Next one for you.

ST: I think I do need an onion of some kind. I'm gonna use shallots, probably.

TM: Same.

ST: And I think that I'm gonna — maybe I'm gonna do both as well.

TM: Oh, both?

ST: Well — this technique that we talked about sounds to me like I might be a convert. I'm gonna make this. So I'm gonna make it with shallots, probably. I'm gonna make the acid butter.

TM: Oh, so I'm gonna start mine with shallots —

ST: And make an acid butter with the onion to finish it.

TM: Ooh, okay. I like it.

ST: Mantecatura. That's it. Okay. We're deciding to build as we go here.

TM: We are. We're building it in the sky — what is that?

ST: You build the plane while it's flying.

TM: Yeah. That's what we're doing. That's what we always do. It usually generally works out quite well. I'll add one final ingredient.

ST: I think we got two, but go ahead.

TM: Cheese.

ST: Yeah, cheese is one of them. Parm or Pecorino?

TM: Parm.

ST: Yeah, me too. Nuttier. Saltier.

TM: Also a little bit more opulence there. Especially some of those nice extremely aged ones would be very nice.

ST: Staying on theme.

TM: Wait — what am I missing? One more ingredient here.

ST: Well, we do need a little bit of olive oil, but maybe we don't.

TM: Nah, not for me.

ST: Okay. Let's — I'll scratch it off mine.

TM: Not as a non-negotiable, at least.

ST: Not as a non-negotiable. 'Cause I might wanna maybe just drizzle some over to finish the dish. But again, northern — we're doing more dairy.

TM: Exactly.

ST: I just generally like to drizzle olive oil on stuff. Kind of anything.

TM: No, it's a beautiful way to finish dishes. But again, it comes back to that question I always ask you —

ST: Is it non-negotiable? No. I think we got a good set of non-negotiables here. I took oil off my list and everything else we were in line.

TM: Just one technique I think we need to throw into the equation. Related to that stock — the way that you make this dish. Now, you won't know this if you're being served it, but if you're making this dish, you have to go bit by bit with the stock. And then that finish that we talked about — that sort of very deliberate tossing in of the cold butter, the cheese, whipping it — and that's got a name. You know the name, don't you?

ST: All'onda.

TM: All'onda, yeah. All'onda meaning wave. So you want that sort of wavy consistency at the end, and you can lump that into my technique non-negotiable here — the consistency of the final dish and the means by which you achieve it.

ST: Yeah. This one to me, with the color edition — I can give you a good reference, the listener, I can give you a good reference on what it should look like when we talk about all'onda. Imagine a pretty full pan of soft scrambled eggs. If you've stirred it enough, you've created small enough curds that are almost gonna look like the rice. But really we're talking about that texture where it looks like it's almost congealed. It looks like a — wobbly — like when you pull a cheesecake out of the oven at first and it hasn't set yet. It's got some motion to it, right? And that's the wave that they're talking about.

TM: Totally. For a minute there I got scared. I thought we were gonna let the guy who's colorblind tell us about what color it should be.

ST: No, I'm just saying these two seem like they look the same in my brain.

TM: No, but I like that. So those are gonna be our non-negotiables for today and I'm feeling pretty good about that. And like I said, we have a bit of a helping hand here from the fact that this really is a stripped-down dish and people have sort of put in the work for us to codify it. Alright, we'll take another quick break here and then we'll be back with some other negotiable ingredients and a little bit of science.

TM: Alright, Sother, we are back. Ingredients now. We've pretty much covered everything, but when something comes up that we don't encounter often, I think it's a good idea for us to dial into it. So, bone marrow.

ST: Love it. Some in my freezer right now. It's always — which is an always statement. Just so you're aware.

TM: Alongside the mustard and the peanut butter. Moving swiftly on. So my local supermarket — like I said, go to your butcher, whatnot. But if that's not an option for you — or just because I was walking around the supermarket last night and I saw in the freezer section they have a small tray of bone marrow in the bones and I thought, well, how would I approach this? So, two-part question for you. Number one, if you see that, or if you buy it frozen from your butcher, how do you prep it at home? And then how are you incorporating it into this dish?

ST: Yeah, sure. So, first I would say most ideal is the longer bones. And if they're still whole, obviously you're gonna have your butcher slice them in half lengthwise, right? So the bone itself is like a hot dog bun and the marrow inside is the hot dog.

TM: Is the hot dog.

ST: The rounder ones are usually shorter. They're more difficult to prepare and eat. So I always get the lengthwise-sliced ones. And if your butcher is there, he's got a band saw, he'll happily do it for you. And frankly, if he's smart, he's already done it before he put them into the freezer case. So then when you get them home, no need to really bother with thawing them at this point. What you're gonna do though is put them into a bowl of ice water with just a little bit of salt — let's go 1%. We're not looking for salty water here. We're just looking for a little bit of salt. What that's gonna do is help leach out any of the blood that might remain in the marrow. And you'll be able to spot that — before you put it in the water, even if it's frozen or still fresh, the marrow part and the bone itself will be pretty gray. Whereas when you do this process — go put them in a container with some salted water and even some ice to make it really cold, and then put that in your fridge overnight. Lots of folks say go in and change the water every couple hours. I think that's just making yourself feel good. 'Cause the water is gonna start looking dirty and you're thinking, well, lemme get that dirty water out there and put in some clean water. But either way, the result is gonna be the same. So leave it alone overnight. Then take them out the next day and give them a rinse. And you will notice a sharp difference in how bright white the marrow has become because the impurities have been pulled out. Then for usage — if you're gonna serve bone marrow as a part of this dish, not part of the preparation of the dish, you're just gonna roast these guys off in a blast hot oven, or on top of your grill, kind of right over the direct heat. Let some flames lick up around it until the bone marrow is kind of bubbly in the bone. The bone is not only where the marrow is, but it's also your service dish in a strange way. So you're cooking right in the bone, or in your blast oven, as high as it'll go until you're bubbly all around. Then pull it out and I would finish this with just a little bit of flaky salt and maybe some gremolata — which is lemon zest and herbs chopped together, but not made into a sauce like a chimichurri. Just a little brightener. Don't say it — my mouth is starting to water. I said it, dammit. So that's how to serve it on the side. What we're gonna do for this dish though, also, is we're gonna start the dish with some bone marrow. Now, at this point, we've pulled it out of that water and rinsed it off and gotten it dried — we can just scoop that out and use it as if though it were a fat, like butter. It will not completely disappear because it is not a fat just like butter. It does have some protein in there that's not gonna melt. People always think that bone marrow melts to nothing. No, that's not true. You're not just eating a stick of butter here. Same with foie gras. People think when I cook my foie gras it's just gonna — if I cook it too long, it'll go away. Have you ever had a whole poached foie gras? It is life-changing. And also, it didn't turn into just liquid. So you're just gonna use that. And when we get to talk — are we about to talk about the dish anyway? So this is where I would start this dish, getting my pan going, adding in some of that bone marrow and letting it melt. And then that's what I'm gonna sauté my shallots in. And then the tostatura — that's the Italian word. What's the word again in Italian?

TM: Tostatura.

ST: In a sec I'm gonna tostatura on my rice and move forward from there. But that's how to process bone marrow.

TM: Fantastic. So I like that dual service there as well, and utilization. And also, just if you're fancy, a little bone marrow snack — Sother's set you right up there. I think that gremolata's gonna be delicious.

ST: Yeah. And also, bone marrow is usually pretty inexpensive at a butcher shop, whereas it's wildly expensive on menus. But anyway, go pick up whatever they have. Pick up as much as you can hold in your freezer. Do that process that I just described, and then freeze what you're not using right away. I keep it in my freezer all the time because I have people over often and we grill out, and one of my favorite things to do is just grab a couple bones and throw them on the grill and then have some bread, crusty bread, to kind of scoop it onto while we're cooking the other things. So bone marrow became a staple of my grill parties. If you arrive early enough, because it's one of the first things I do — people start arriving, we're far away from dinner. I'll grill off a couple of bone marrow and some crusty bread and we'll have that with some wine or whatever while we're grilling everything else.

TM: Delicious. So, getting back into that tostatura — the toast. And sort of taking us seamlessly, or somewhat, into the science section here. This is one of the main processes that you'll learn, or the most important ones you'll learn, when it comes to preparing risotto. This is something that happens after we've sweat down our aromatics — onion, shallot, garlic if you're using it. And then you're gonna add your rice, toss it in the fat. There should be some excess fat — butter here, maybe butter and olive oil. And what you're looking to do there is coat it in a layer of fat that is going to sort of solidify in a way, or toast — as we said, this is the toast — that's going to further slow down the release of those starches into the dish. It's gonna give you more control when it comes to looking for that al dente texture. It's gonna allow you to have a more even cook. And then in the meantime, by creating that sort of layer — that layer of toast — it's almost encasing it in that fat, in that toast.

ST: It's the candy shell on the M&M.

TM: The candy shell. Right, exactly. So creating that shell — in the meantime, the starch inside is also gonna gelatinize. So you've got a bunch of different stuff, but this is ensuring, to your point much earlier, when we're eating the final risotto, we want the starchy sauce, but we wanna be able to feel those individual grains. And that's gonna happen during this — this is gonna be one of those crucial preparations for that.

ST: Yeah. I think the analogy I would use beyond the M&M — which kind of works — is a french fry. We're gonna get a crispy exterior, but we're gonna still have a creamy, fluffy interior on a french fry. And we're gonna have similar things happening to this rice.

TM: Yes. Another defining aspect of risotto preparation that I think a lot of people will immediately go to, and also that sets it apart from different grains, from different rice — the constant stirring that needs to happen. You've toasted your rice, you've deglazed with your white wine. There's an Italian word for that.

ST: Your Italian is great.

TM: Sfumatura. It doesn't help that they're putting a lot of weird consonants next to each other. The sfumatura — the deglaze. So once you've done that, then you're gonna add your stock. Tell me why we are adding our stock bit by bit, slowly by slowly, rather than — hey, can't I just dump the whole bunch in? And eventually it's gonna get there. What is the science behind the gradual stock?

ST: Well, there's a couple pieces here that are involved. And I'm sure you've got more intel. The temperature is an issue. We wanna keep this starch cooking at a consistent temperature. And if we start with all the stock in there at once, it's either gonna be too hot if you've got the stock already boiling, or too cold if you started from cold and moved into hot. So the temperature is at play. Holding a regulated temperature throughout the process is gonna result in a better end result. And then second to that, I would say the stirring is necessary. So if you put all the liquid in there, you wouldn't be stirring. Now the stirring is necessary because that's what's sort of coaxing out that starch, which, as we spoke earlier, is creating the sauce. And I didn't say it earlier, but I'm gonna say it now — in a weird way, mechanically, the whole dish of risotto, we're just building a nice sauce. Like, if you took away the fact that we're just gonna eat it, this is just a sauce — all the way. I'm not saying the sauce we're creating. I'm saying it is a sauce in its mechanics. Okay. So tell me more about the temperature.

TM: No, totally right there. The mechanics — we're creating friction to release that starch. It doesn't happen without that stirring. But then otherwise, yeah, we're using stock to regulate the temperature of the rice and the pan so that we're staying at a constant — and I can't believe that I resorted to Celsius over Fahrenheit for this one. Sorry. It just slips back in every now and again. But we're looking for 80 to 90 degrees Celsius. So just below boiling point.

ST: Two twelve. So what we're really looking to hover around is like 180, 190.

TM: 180, 190. Perfect. And that's the sweet spot for that gelatinization that I was talking about earlier. The starch release. And if you, like you said, start low and then bring to a boil, or start too hot and then come down, it's not an even cooking. Our man Jacques Pépin —

ST: Oh no.

TM: You know what I saw him doing? Jacques favors just dumping all your stock in at once. Doesn't bother with it.

ST: Listen —

TM: But listen —

ST: The man has stuff to do.

TM: He's a busy man. He's got chickens to paint. But I would argue that if you do that technique — and I've done it once in my life 'cause I was like, is this just pseudoscience? Is this just kitchen law or whatever? To me it was much more like a porridge. Oatmeal. Had to translate that for the Americans there. Than what I want from a risotto. So those are our key scientific names of the day. I'm gonna give it a go one last time as well. Our finishing — the mantecatura.

ST: Mantecatura.

TM: All'onda. And the reason I just wanna surface that one again — so mantecatura. It means butter — butter in Spanish. This is an Italian technique.

ST: Yeah, right?

TM: The word entered Italian through Milan's connections to the Spanish Empire. Lombardy was under Spanish Habsburg control from the 1500s to the 1700s. Thus, the technique that defines the most iconic Italian risotto dish has a Spanish name born from 170 years of foreign rule. And you know what that is, don't you?

ST: That's gotta be the Porco fun fact of the week. Am I right?

TM: It sure is.

ST: Mantecatura.

TM: Mantecatura. And one last time for the people in the back — sfumatura.

ST: Sfumatura. So fumo, right, is smoke. It's a vapor. So when we're pouring in the wine for this sfumatura, we're evaporating it all because we're cooking it down, right?

TM: Because it evaporates at a lower temperature than water.

ST: That's right.

TM: So we're being left behind — much like you said about people thinking bone marrow. When we reduce white wine down, we're not left with nothing. We're left with all the other good stuff — all the acid, the stuff that's gonna really compliment the dish. So there — that has been the science, the negotiable ingredients. We're making good pace. Time for us to take another break, and then we're gonna head into the build, the preparation.

TM: Alright, so there we are. Back. Time for the preparation. We walked through a lot of these different processes. Let's bring them all together. Kick it off please with your take.

ST: Yeah. I think based on everything we've decided here, we're gonna start in a pan with some of that bone marrow. We're gonna render it down.

TM: Are you chopping? Are you dicing it up?

ST: I mean, sure. It's gonna just kind of come out crumbly almost when you're just breaking it off from a piece that's still cold and raw. Crumbly is the right word, I think. It's gonna look like hard, firm tofu or feta cheese maybe.

TM: Gotcha.

ST: Anyway, we get some of that in the pan, start rendering. Once it's liquified a bit, we're gonna go in with our aromatics — whatever we're using. And we said in the non-negotiables, it was certainly onion or shallot. We didn't say garlic. And I think, frankly, this is an Italian dish that does not need garlic. But you do you. So I'm gonna go in, in this case, with shallots — because we talked about what we're gonna do with onions later. So shallots are in. Once they are softened, I'm going in with my Carnaroli rice, and I'm gonna toss that around so that it gets well coated with the fat. And then I'm gonna keep moving it in the pan until it's slightly translucent and toasty. And also I'm listening, right? It's another dish where we can listen in. I'm listening for a different sound. When the rice first goes into the pan, it's gonna sound kind of tinny. But as it gets toasted, it's gonna sound like little pearls are being knocked around in there. It's gonna take on a different sound. Once we've got the nice tostatura happening — don't forget, I should have mentioned — we're gonna have our stock on the side on a burner of its own, maintaining about 180 degrees.

TM: Or Celsius if you like.

ST: Yeah, ish. You don't need to break out a thermometer here. We wanna have some hot stock, not boiling. And then once the rice is nice and toasty, we're gonna go in with a ladle. And by the way, I'm using my saucier — probably a 10-inch diameter. Not a sauté pan. It's got some walls on it. And then I'm gonna ladle in enough liquid to just barely cover the rice. And then I'm gonna give it a good stir. While I'm stirring, we'll have some both absorption and evaporation, and we'll start to — we won't see the creaminess coming in until the third or fourth round of adding in stock.

TM: You're gonna be using a Maurice for this, right?

ST: I'm probably, frankly, using the wooden version of a Maurice for this dish.

TM: It's not a wooden spoon though, because you need to get into the edge of that pan. Like you said, this is a pan with walls. It has an edge where the base meets the wall.

ST: It has a 90-degree angle, yeah. So the wooden one that is flat but angled. I don't even know how to describe this thing, but I have a few of them. We'll put a picture up somewhere.

TM: I just can't believe — on the day of our chef Maurice, his coronation, and you're going —

ST: Alright. We're using Maurice.

TM: For a wooden version, a wooden knockoff that you don't even know the name of. Come on.

ST: We're using the Maurice. Okay. Go back and edit all that. We're using the Maurice. Get your Maurice in there and stir. And then as you see that liquid has been both absorbed and evaporated — oh wait, did I skip the wine?

TM: You did, but we talked about it.

ST: Okay, sorry.

TM: But as a punishment, you need to say the Italian name for it.

ST: Right. I skipped the wine. So that's gonna be — marrow, aromatics softened, wine, then — no, I'm butchering it again. Sorry.

TM: Tostatura.

ST: Sfumatura. Tostatura —

TM: Stock.

ST: Stock. There we go. Anyway, so now we're — ladle one is almost absorbed. And by the way, once we get this project started, as I mentioned top of the show somewhere, gonna take 16 to 18 minutes to go from dry rice to plating up. So just get your timing for whatever else you're serving. Then we're gonna repeat that process, right? We're gonna go in with another ladle and stir until it's almost completely gone, and another ladle and stir until it's almost completely gone. You will see the transformation as you're going — it's this sort of cloudy looking, and then it's gonna start to become sort of creamy looking, because all that stirring is also helping to emulsify. It's not just pulling the starch out. You're keeping it in motion. You're emulsifying. Again, we're building basically a sauce.

TM: Building a sauce. Let's get Sauced.

ST: Let's get Sauced. Then, as we've gotten all of our stock in there — and by the way, I don't think we mentioned ratio here, but we're looking around four to one. So you can judge everything that's going on by that. If you're starting with a pound of rice, then you're gonna need about four quarts of stock. Now that you know your ratio, once you've gotten it almost all the way in there — and of course you're tasting towards the end, pull some of the rice out and see how firm it is, see if it's al dente or if it's too raw — once we've got as much stock in there as we believe it can hold, then we're gonna take that butter that we talked about making. So we're gonna make a wine and vinegar and onion stock that we're then gonna strain and reduce to a syrup, and then fold into soft butter to make basically a compound butter. That's the butter I'm gonna finish my dish with, to get that all'onda stage, right? So I'm knobbing in some — and it's cold, by the way. I'm knobbing it in cold and tossing it until I get that all'onda stage. And again, this is something we can hear, right? When you're doing this, it'll sound like — they call it all'onda 'cause it's the wave. It'll sound like waves crashing, but it's not just waves of water, it's waves of water full of something. I don't know what to say. It's full of a bunch of seaweed. But you'll hear this sort of — it makes almost like a flapping sound as it strikes the pan. What this is gonna do is help you lower the temperature a little bit, get you down to closer to 160, while the sort of finishing emulsification and glazing — the rice is gonna be real shiny at this point. And then we're gonna finish with some cheese — we said Parmigiano-Reggiano — and you're gonna keep stirring and emulsifying that in as well. And again — I've done it twice in this one — I forgot the saffron.

TM: Yeah, I know.

ST: Were you not gonna tell me?

TM: I was. I didn't wanna interrupt you.

ST: Well —

TM: But we are gonna add — bloom —

ST: I would've bloomed the saffron in the wine. Some of it — because early saffron addition yields better color. And again, as the guy who doesn't care about that, I do care about that in certain applications. And this dish is known for its color.

TM: It's about the color.

ST: So, earlier addition of saffron bloomed in wine. And then we'll have a later addition of saffron bloomed in a little bit of wine too, because later additions are more for flavor. So we'll get the nice color in the earlier part, and then we'll add just a little bit more at the end to get some flavor.

TM: Bloom your saffron.

ST: But bloom it no matter what.

TM: You brought it back. I was waiting. I was gonna add it, but I think that sounds like a very good —

ST: You're always just waiting for me to make mistakes.

TM: No, that's the pessimist in you. The optimist in me says I was giving you the opportunity to make it right.

ST: To redeem myself.

TM: Your words. I did also realize one other thing — just a chef's tip. That we didn't share earlier, when it comes to making that risotto base if you wanna do it for your meal prep. You spoke about the changing of sounds when you're cooking. Obviously, we're gonna take it almost — I think you took it longer, but the way that I'd always been taught was closer to like 30 to 50% of the way there. Just because, you know, if you were making big batches, it was gonna continue cooking even when you put it in the blast chiller. So that would be more controllable at home. But the way we were always taught — the point we were taught to cook it to — was take out an individual grain, press it down with your thumb, and what you'll see is that the exterior of the grain, almost counterintuitively compared to everything we've been talking about, is gonna be more translucent. And the center is gonna be a lot more solid white. And when you press that grain down, the white center ideally will break into three parts. I don't know what the science was behind that. I was told that that meant you were three minutes away, cooking-wise. But that doesn't make sense 'cause that's not 50% of the way. But long story running, as you like to say — if you're making that risotto base and you don't wanna take it the whole way, pull that out, press it down. Look for those three — maybe it was five, I forget. I think it was three lines. And then there you go. You're off to the races. And then, optional thing as well — we're going really nerdy here.

ST: That's the point of the show.

TM: I don't know whether I'll ever have an opportunity to share this again. You mentioned pouring it out onto a wide tray. So maximizing your surface area to cool it down as fast as we can. One of the things, again, I was taught as a chef, was using my Maurice, just making indentations — some waves — into that. So that you're increasing the surface area. And they told us a lot when we were at school about surface area. It's the key to everything.

ST: It really is.

TM: It does come up a lot.

ST: We would do that too. I don't think that's necessary for the amount that a home cook is making. But we would have sheet pan upon sheet pan and each sheet pan would be pretty full to the top of the rim. So you'd make those indents so that it would have more surface area to cool quicker. You'd also set it on a rack so that it's not seated flat on anything. So it could cool quicker from the bottom as well. Good call. I didn't even think to mention that.

TM: Part two — chef's tips. Two thirsty chefs.

ST: Yeah. Is it time to talk about drinks?

TM: It's time to take a final break of the day and then we're gonna get into the drinks.

TM: Alright, so then, we're back. I've got my perfectly "Alan Dente" risotto. What am I having with it?

ST: Alan Dente. Who's Alan Dente?

TM: He's Maurice's friend. He makes good risotto.

ST: Him and Al Fresco.

TM: Al — that's Alan to you? Alfredo.

ST: I think what I wanna drink with this dish is gonna be something that's gonna cut through the richness. Frankly, we don't have a ton of butter or a ton of marrow in here. But the starchiness of this makes it mouth-coating and rich. So even though technically it's not super fatty and rich, the starchy quality that we've emulsified with the cheese and everything else is making it feel quite opulent and mouth-coating and stuff like that. So I want something that's gonna cut through that. And I mentioned the Negroni earlier, which would certainly be sharp and cut through this, but let's talk about the White Negroni. Which is gonna be a little bit more grassy and maybe floral from the Suze. And also, not for nothing, it's gonna match color-wise. It's gonna be in the same colorway as this, I believe. But I wanna go one step further and I wanna say, let's have a White Negroni Sbagliato. Let's go ahead and add some sparkling wine to the mix. That way we've got an effervescence that's again gonna help cut. It's gonna tingle my mouth and wake me up and be like, this is sharp and bitter, but effervescent and somewhat fruity, and it's gonna go great with this dish.

TM: Are you garnishing that with gold leaf?

ST: No.

TM: But can we bloom some saffron in our Prosecco?

ST: Why not? A hundred percent.

TM: Maybe just a little bit. 'Cause you want it to be real —

ST: Temperature. Frankly though, I would bloom it in the gin.

TM: Yeah, no better idea.

ST: The higher alcohol percentage is gonna be a better solvency. That'll happen quicker, so you don't need a ton of time. And also, certainly you don't need a ton of saffron. Again, it's super expensive, but that's a thing. It's expensive. Buy the pound — but no one's buying it by the pound. No, no, no. You're buying a fraction of a fraction of an ounce. This is, you know, you're getting a dime bag of this. Did I just show my age again?

TM: Yeah. But I agree with you there. And look, if you really don't wanna go to the effort of that — which is not an effort at all — you can buy Old Raj. Old Raj, Scottish gin, which has saffron in it. And a light color. It's very light.

ST: It is light color. And again, if you're making this with — if you're making a White Negroni with Suze, you're gonna boost that color by a lot anyway. So I don't know if the color is the key here, but more the flavor.

TM: The flavor. And the aroma.

ST: I would absolutely amend my White Negroni Sbagliato to a saffron-infused White Negroni Sbagliato.

TM: Got any names for us here today?

ST: You know, I don't. I like it when you come up with the names. Because I would just call this the White Negroni Sbagliato infused with saffron.

TM: Man. A few words. Succinct.

ST: Well, I just — I don't think I need to —

TM: So I actually had basically a very similar idea for this. I was just thinking, we're in there, we've already done a White Negroni riff, so let's add our Sbagliato. So I had a very similar cocktail, and I called it the Sbagliato Dorato.

ST: Dorato.

TM: Golden Sbagliato.

ST: Okay. Are you putting gold leaf in yours?

TM: No, I'm putting saffron in there. I'm gonna take it to the next level. I'm having mine as an entrée. And I'm doing it — one plate of risotto alla Milanese. And then on the side I'm gonna have that ossobuco. With a bone marrow on top. Why not? You know, why not. It's gilded lily time. So in this vein, in this very prince's realm which we are roaming, I would like to — I'm gonna double-park. In my left hand, with my risotto, I'm having Franciacorta, you know, sparkling white wine made in the same way as Champagne with many of the same grapes, but from Lombardy there in Italy. So, Italian sparkling white wine — more expensive than Prosecco, but not too crazy expensive. High quality. And then in my right hand, along with my ossobuco, I'm gonna either go for Barolo, Barbaresco. I'm going opulent. I'm going rich. I'm going big. I'm going northern Italy, and I'm not even gonna think about beer. I'm just going classic, crisp, luxury wines. Can't wait for it. This is gonna be an expensive one to cook here at the Sauced HQ.

ST: You know what I might throw in just to add an ember to the fire — I'm gonna have mine with my White Negroni Sbagliato. I'm gonna have mine as a first course, as we discussed, with the bone marrow on the side with some gremolata. And when I finish that, before my entrée, whatever that is, comes — I'm having a solid ounce of Fernet-Branca.

TM: Ooh, nice. For the saffron connection.

ST: For the saffron connection.

TM: 70% of the world's supply. I like it. I was also gonna say, when you were talking us through the preparation, I was thinking about something we literally did recently. Which was just pouring a little glass of Marsala while we were cooking. And that was really nice. Just a nutty little —

ST: Yes. Well, that nutty aroma of the toasted rice with a bit of Marsala would be outstanding.

TM: In a small little glass there. Like a nice, slightly chilled little glass of Marsala.

ST: I don't want people to think we're always getting drunk.

TM: No, no. They're small glasses.

ST: We're always just kind of maintaining.

TM: It's like that movie where those teachers committed to keeping their blood alcohol at a certain level.

ST: Mads Mikkelsen — I don't remember the name of the movie. That was great.

TM: That's what we strive for here. We have standards and we strive to keep them.

ST: That's right.

TM: So, any final thoughts for you here today? When it comes to what are people missing out on if they never make this dish at least once in their life? Or just any lasting impressions for you.

ST: Yeah. Missing out — what they'd be missing out on, I think, is — man, just the — there's a lot of history in this simple dish. I think it's a — it's not a new way. I think we've gotten away from the way we should be looking at a dish like this, and it is a reminder. How about that? This dish is going to remind you that simplicity can be opulent and gorgeous and delightful — to yourself and to your guests. I always talk about you wanna cook with other people. You're gonna really become the educator to whoever is in the kitchen with you, sipping on some Marsala or whatever while you cook this dish. And I think if you are the type who's gonna be at least moderately introspective, you're gonna learn something too. And I don't mean just about the dish — you might learn a little something about yourself.

TM: Wow. That's very deep.

ST: Well, it's like an after-school special movie. Not only did I learn about risotto, I learned a little about myself.

TM: I think, for me today — I hate to borrow it from our mussels episode and at least maybe one other — but this is the singular, maybe not dish, but preparation — risotto in general — is the thing that I think about as the best way to highlight to folks where you are engaging senses that you don't always associate with the kitchen. You spoke about the sound of the rice as it's changing during the tostatura.

ST: The smell of the rice toasting.

TM: The smell. The vigorous whipping action to get the all'onda. That's just — maybe using muscles and senses that you're not always tuned into in the kitchen. And I think this is the perfect example of that. 'Cause again, this reminds me of being in a kitchen. Even when you're making just the base, you don't have the luxury to stand in front of a pan in a kitchen and not do anything else. So if your back has turned to that pan — you need, especially — if you can smell this during the tostatura phase, you've gone too far. The Maillard competes with the saffron. You don't want that. But if you are listening and you can hear the change in tone, that's when you know — oh, drop the knife, turn around, give it a stir. Maybe deglaze, maybe add more stock, whatever. So it's just the sound of cooking. The basement is alive here in the Sauced HQ. The sound of Sauced. Sother, it's been the debut of Maurice.

ST: Chef Maurice.

TM: And folks, we will have that up there on the founders wall section of our website. Head over there, saucedpodcast.com. Check out Maurice. And if you even wanna be a fraction as generous as Rachel Depo and Clay Dillow and all of our backers there in the Kickstarter campaign, please consider a premium subscription.

ST: Yeah. I hate to say the same phrase everyone says — less than a cup of coffee.

TM: It's four threads of saffron.

ST: There we go. It's less than four threads, probably, to just support our show and keep us in your ears and cooking with you in the kitchen. And we love it. And we also really, really love — I know I've mentioned it before — when you show your work. We've seen tons of people posting the recipes, both the food and the drink. Not necessarily at the same time, but we love seeing that you're listening, love seeing that you are engaging, and love seeing that you are making the things.

TM: Yeah. And I tell you what Sother really loves as well, folks — he loves it when you use his specific terminology. Showing the work. Hashtag show the work, folks.

ST: Showing the work.

TM: In the meantime —

ST: It's time to pull out the apron.

TM: Put on the apron, maybe —

ST: Well, you know —

TM: And unfold the shaker.

ST: And start cooking.

TM: And imbibing.

ST: Let's go.

TM: Let's get Sauced.

ST: Cheers, buddy.

TM: Cheers.

ST: I'm already a little sauced.